News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Build Sheet Question for 1959

Started by okccadman, May 03, 2021, 02:20:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

okccadman

I received the build record for my 1959 Fleetwood from Allied Vaughan and one of the columns on the right side is "Sales Request."  My car is the only car on the sheet where that is checked.  Neither Allied Vaughn not the GM Heritage Center can tell me what a mark in this column means.  Anyone here know what this could refer to?
Jim Jordan CLC# 5374
Oklahoma City, OK

55 Series 62 Sedan
56 Series 62 Coupe
56 Fleetwood 75 Derham Limo
59 Fleetwood Sixty Special
66 Fleetwood Brougham
66 Superior Hearse/Ambulance
67 Fleetwood Sixty Special
68 Fleetwood Eldorado
76 Coupe de Ville d'Elegance
90 Brougham
92 Fleetwood Coupe
93 Allante
94 Fleetwood Brougham
02 Eldorado Commemorative Edition

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#1
Special Request I believe.

This notation was normally used in cases where oddball color combinations were specified to save time from the factory having to double check with the dealer that it wasn't done in error. There could also be other reasons for the S/R notation not color related.

This is not to be confused with Special Order which is something different. In your case, I suspect the Persian Sand exterior with Beige interior may have been the reason it was processed as a Special Request since this was not a factory recommended color combination. Or it could also have been simply due to the fact of an Eldorado color being ordered on a non-Eldorado.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Tom Hall 7485

Eric, why do you believe that "Special Request" is different from "Special Order" as of 1959?
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on May 26, 2021, 07:52:43 PM
Eric, why do you believe that "Special Request" is different from "Special Order" as of 1959?

The main difference between Special Order & Special Request is with the former, the car was ordered in non-stock paint colors and/or interior trim combinations. Special Request cars have stock paint colors and interior trim (for the model year in question)- except the selections are not in the list of recommended trim for a given exterior color or visa versa. In these cases, the dealer was instructed to check the "Special Request" box to prevent delays in processing the order while the factory verifies the selections were not made in error.

Special Request might not necessarily pertain to visual selections either. It is conceivable for example, that a car ordered without tinted glass but with air conditioning might also be notated SR since the factory recommended cars with A/C to also be equipped with tinted glass.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Tom Hall 7485

First, Mr. Jordan's question about 'sales request', the 4th column title from the right on a 1959 Cars Built page.

I have Cars Built pages showing maybe 350 1959 Cadillacs, all photocopies kindly provided by C&LC members. Of those maybe 350 cars, only one has the "Sales Request" column filled in, and that car also has a trim code of "00". As you probably know, a trim code of 00 means that there is something very unusual about the interior, but it doesn't tell us exactly what. (The car was painted color 12, Dover White; lots of different interior colors work with it.)

(For the 1959 Cars Built reports, which were monthly summaries of production and destination, the "Sales Request" column was new. I don't see it on my few Cars Built sheets for 1958 Cadillacs.)

So, Mr. Jordan, does the Cars Built page that you received also show "00" as the trim code for your car? Does it have "00" as the paint code? Do any of the other columns hint at a special feature? (I don't see the specifics about your car here. What am I overlooking?)

Thanks for your comments, Eric.

Day-to-day operations and policies in Special Order Department remain rather mysterious. Allow me to take us back 18 years before 1959 Cadillacs, to the 1941 Cadillac. (I want to add to this thread more discussion about "special request" versus "special order" versus "special feature". This is not what Mr. Jordan asked, but it might be good to flesh this out on the forums for posterity.)

In the Class 11 Authenticity Manual, there is extraordinary attention to factory-custom features. Unfortunately, the documents and body ID tags for unusual cars did not get much coverage. There is this comment at page A-12:

     Cadillac built a lot of "Custom" cars, mostly Fleetwoods. These were part of the "SO" (Special Order) cars and the SO cars ranged from simple changes to
     major changes.... These SO's were actually listed as SR#'s (Special Request) on the Build Sheets and they might also have an LX#. We know the SR #'s go
     at least to SR#856 and the same number could be (and sometimes was) used multiple times when the same change was specified on more than one car....
     Most Special Colors were SFs (Special Features), not SR#'s. The Special Color name and paint # were sometimes listed on the Build Sheet and sometimes
     the SF# and/or the SR#.

I don't know whether that passage has been amended. In spite of some vagueness and confusing statements, my interpretation of it is: "Special request" doesn't necessarily touch on Cadillac Division's recommendations; that some special order cars are a subset of "special request"; and as of 1941, paint combinations outside the year's offerings didn't usually get treated as Special Requests. Do I understand that correctly?   

Eric, for what year was the dealer instructed to mark the "special request" box, and on what form? In the year(s) that you're thinking of, wouldn't a request for a non-standard paint warrant the same sort of confirmation by Zone and/or Special Order Department as for an unusual combination of a standard paint with a standard interior trim? Considering that the car has already been built by the time it appears on the Cars Built page, isn't it a little late for Zone (District as of 1941) or Special Order Department to use the page to remind them to get confirmation of the order?
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#5
The body tag on Jim's 1959 60 Special doesn't have any SO listed for paint or interior trim therefore not a Special Order.

I pulled a couple build sheets and found 1959 & 1960 have the column heading "Sales Request" but in 1962 it is headed "Special Request" instead. One SR of which I have direct knowledge is a 1961 Coupe deVille with normal paint & trim codes except it is Topaz with green interior which was not a recommended combination. Another is a 1959 Series 62 convertible in Kensington Green with red leather which the owner attests SR is checked on the build sheet for that car.

In the case of Jim's car either the SR was triggered by the Eldorado color of Persian Sand alone or the fact that this color was chosen with a Fawn interior which wouldn't have been recommended. Now in the case of another member's 1959 60 Special ordered in Eldorado color Hampton Green with standard green interior which do go well together, the million dollar question is if the SR box is ticked off on the build sheet for that car.

I don't dispute that all SO may also be annotated as SR but not all SR are SO as defined here.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

quadfins

I agree with Eric's interpretation.

The build sheet for my '61 also notes a "special requirement" on the far edge. (Just slightly different wording from the '59 sheet).

My data plate has no SO code, but the unusual thing on the car is the special order eldorado paint color, with the standard deVille interior. So I believe it is marked on the sheet, as Eric says, to indicate "yes, you read that right..."

Jim
Jim Eccleston
1961 Coupe de Ville
BATILAC
Senior Crown
DeCou Driving Award x 4

wrefakis

like to see build sheet and body tag for research

59-in-pieces

Comment from the back of the room.

Could Special Request also signal the logistics of how the car (without special paint or interior or unsanctioned combinations) was to be handled.

It reminded me of when my Dad was allowed to pick up his car from the Cadillac factory - as he was also allowed to watch it go down the line being built.
It was in 1965, which on the one hand is years after the 59, but not that many after 61, of the examples mentioned - and yes a generation after 41.
Also, the world could have changed during that span of years on what was allowed and what all the abbreviations/shorthand really meant.

The literature is pretty clear that Cadillac would do just about anything in the ways it might stray from the standard of how things were done.
But truthfully, how often did they stray, as evidence of the number of "SO" or "SR" (even fewer) cars really got those designations on the Data Tag or Build Sheets, referred to here as posts, of the thousands of cars built in any given year.
Probably somebody has that tasty Data Point in their pocket, so now's the time to let us know.

Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Tom Hall 7485

Okay, thanks for the great comments.  I hope Mr. Refakis can add something about what kinds of special items might have been represented in the "sales request" column for 1959. (For now, I am concentrating on the column in the report that Mr. Jordan brought up. Yes, I think that "special request" at the ordering stage could very well include many other possibilities.)

We haven't said much here about the purpose of the column in Cars Built. Why do you think it was added? (One theory is that it could allow an employee to quickly skim the huge monthly Cars Built report and locate cars that had had something unusual manufactured into them, without using computer time that may have been unavailable. Which distributors and direct dealers are making us go to extra effort, and how often? What kinds of unusual things are retail customers requesting? Those are the management issues that I imagine may have prompted the Division to add the column. In this report, it's too late to confirm the order. I think the column may have been a finding aid for someone who needed to track down data about unusual cars.)

Let's not assume too much from body ID plates about what was or wasn't "special order". The procedures for the Fisher Body ID plates varied from body plant to body plant and the plates often leave a lot to the imagination. Also, the kinds of things listed on body ID plates changed as the years rolled on.

I think we need to be careful not to make blanket statements that span several decades. The definitions of "special" this and that, as well as the policies about unusual cars, may have changed. As you say, Cadillac Division couldn't even settle on a title for this column, which was deleted around the 1968 or 1969 model years.)

(You guys continue to call the pages of the monthly Cars Built report "build sheets"  :-\. If you really want to be meticulous about terminology, those pages should be called by their title, "Cars Built" (and from 1970 model year, "Cars Built/Shipped". Those titles express clearly that the car has already been built, and that the paperwork is no longer at the ordering stage. Nor are those pages guidance to people at assembly plants, unlike broadcast sheets.)

Eric, I don't think you need to say that this column represents an either/or. It seems to represent at least two kinds of "unusuals" at the same time. One is apparently an unusual combination of otherwise standard paints/trims/and maybe also vinyl or convertible tops, e.g., a pinkish paint with a green interior. Another is an Eldorado color being used on something other than an Eldorado. Another is a special order interior coded "00" (illustration attached), level of color coordination unknown. Do you agree?

Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

fishnjim

Wasn't any "computer time" in '59.   All paper.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#11
Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on May 28, 2021, 01:37:05 PM


(You guys continue to call the pages of the monthly Cars Built report "build sheets"  :-\. If you really want to be meticulous about terminology, those pages should be called by their title, "Cars Built" (and from 1970 model year, "Cars Built/Shipped". Those titles express clearly that the car has already been built, and that the paperwork is no longer at the ordering stage. Nor are those pages guidance to people at assembly plants, unlike broadcast sheets.)

I agree they're technically not "Build Sheets" but "Cars Built" sheets or even "Cars As Built" lists. Even GM Heritage calls this archived data "build sheets". Regardless of whether an actual build sheet or line item from the "Cars Built" sheet is consulted, it otherwise makes no difference to the individual wishing to authenticate their car as originally built. 

Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on May 28, 2021, 01:37:05 PMEric, I don't think you need to say that this column represents an either/or. It seems to represent at least two kinds of "unusuals" at the same time. One is apparently an unusual combination of otherwise standard paints/trims/and maybe also vinyl or convertible tops, e.g., a pinkish paint with a green interior. Another is an Eldorado color being used on something other than an Eldorado. Another is a special order interior coded "00" (illustration attached), level of color coordination unknown. Do you agree?

I have already acceded to the possibility that "Sales/Special Request" annotation may have been made in any case of a Special Ordered car. More research is needed to say for certain.

In any event, the distinction between "Sales/Special Request" and "Special Order" should be recognized. Why GM chose to incorporate this column item in the sheets (after the fact) is anyone's guess. Presumably it had some purpose for internal use.


A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis

build sheets only list 00 for trim and SR
you need order sheet for actual so configuration
SR would any deviation including "omit freon"

Tom Hall 7485

1959 Cadillacs that were not marked "sales request" on Cars Built reports include:
    A speedometer showing kilometers per hour (engine number 000021 built 9/08/58);
    An export car for outlet X60 (same car as above);
    Another export car, one having low-compression cylinder heads (engine number 005316 built 11/04/58);
    A commercial chassis destined for Superior (engine number 005332 built 11/04/58);
    A Sixty-Special with the "Q" (Eldorado) engine (engine number 030375 built 12/18/58); and
    A Series 62 convertible in the unrecommended combination of paint 36 (Kensington Green, a dark metallic green) with trim 29 (red)
        and convertible top 2 (black)!
A combo that used standard paint and trim. See attached Cars Built page courtesy of Mr. T. K.
        (This car was built on May 13, 1959. The farthest column to the right that is marked "1" indicates an Autronic Eye. Please be careful
        what you say about the color combo. I believe the car was or still is owned by the club member, Mr. T. K.)

1959 Cadillacs that were marked "sales request" on the Cars Built reports include:
    A few 1959 commercial chassis, one having paint 10 (black fenders & hood) and trim 70 (gray);
    A Coupe de Ville in Eldorado color 92, Argent (metallic silver), with the tasteful choice of trim 41, Gray Camden Cloth & Gray Leather
        (engine number 078660 built 3/24/59).


In the case of a 1959 Eldorado 90-series paint being ordered for another series of 1959 Cadillac, there were no recommended interiors for that
other series
. No charts were printed in the 1959 Cadillac Optional Specifications Manual to guide in the pairing of Eldorado paints with
non-Eldorado trims. Therefore, in that sense, an order for an Eldorado paint on another series of Cadillac was always going to involve an
unrecommended trim.

Nevertheless, the examples above tell me that Mr. Jordan's car was probably marked "sales request" due to its Eldorado paint, Persian Sand,
on a Sixty-Special, irrespective of the interior being Fawn and therefore not on the chart of recommended trims for Persian Sand.

Incidentally, the 1959 Cadillac Optional Specifications Manual provided guidance for ordering a variety of special things. However, it did not use
the terms "sales request" or "special request", much less did it try to distinguish them from the term "special order", which is used in a few places
in that manual in regard to certain special interiors, e.g., pages 29, 31, 33, 35, and 37.
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

CMJ


Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#15
Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on June 11, 2021, 02:54:18 PMIn the case of a 1959 Eldorado 90-series paint being ordered for another series of 1959 Cadillac, there were no recommended interiors for that
other series
.   No charts were printed in the 1959 Cadillac Optional Specifications Manual to guide in the pairing of Eldorado paints with
non-Eldorado trims.  Therefore, in that sense, an order for an Eldorado paint on another series of Cadillac was always going to involve an
unrecommended trim.


For every Eldorado (Series 90) color, there is a perfectly harmonizing interior color combination to be found without the need for it to be an Eldorado. A Coupe deVille in Persian Sand with Rose Coronado Cloth with Rose bolsters & carpet for instance. Or a Hampton Green Series 62  Sedan with Green/Black Carlisle cloth with green bolsters & carpet. What about a Series 62 Convertible in Eldorado Olympic white with red/white leather interior?

Conversely, for every Eldorado interior trim combination, there was at least one standard exterior paint color that was equally harmonizing.

Therefore to suggest that only Eldorado interiors are compatible with Eldorado paints is simply not correct despite not appearing in the list of "recommendations".

The fact is that "Eldorado colors" were really a precursor to Firemist colors except with the latter, Cadillac made the logical decision to simply offer premium colors available at extra charge regardless of model or series which made a lot more sense.

Quote from: Tom Hall 7485 on June 11, 2021, 02:54:18 PMIncidentally, the 1959 Cadillac Optional Specifications Manual provided guidance for ordering a variety of special things. However, it did not use
the terms "sales request" or "special request", much less did it try to distinguish them from the term "special order", which is used in a few places
in that manual in regard to certain special interiors,

Sales Request column of 1959/1960 Cars Built Sheet changed to > "Special Request" beginning with the 1961 Sheets. The purpose of either heading was the same.

"Sales Request/Special Request" is not the same as Special Order. The distinction is non-stock paint or interior combination where "00" is assigned. A Hampton Green Series 62 Sedan may be "Sales Request"  but 1955 Chrysler Green is SPECIAL ORDER, ie: 00 paint code or "SO+body number" on body plate. Same applies to trim.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Gaddy72

Hello Everyone . I ordered the build sheet for my 59 Fleetwood and I think I have most of it figured out . There is a line at the bottom on the left that reads what looks like SR 59 M 3 . I am sure the 59 M refers to year and Fleetwood . Is this where they would put "sales request " and what would the 3 represent ? It looks like it was ordered with an El Dorado trim code so I assume it would be a sales request . I know the SO was for the leather seats . I included pictures of the cowl plate and build sheet . Thanks for any help , C.Gaddy

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#17
Quote from: Gaddy72 on March 09, 2023, 08:36:00 AMHello Everyone . I ordered the build sheet for my 59 Fleetwood and I think I have most of it figured out . There is a line at the bottom on the left that reads what looks like SR 59 M 3 . I am sure the 59 M refers to year and Fleetwood . Is this where they would put "sales request " and what would the 3 represent ? It looks like it was ordered with an El Dorado trim code so I assume it would be a sales request . I know the SO was for the leather seats . I included pictures of the cowl plate and build sheet . Thanks for any help , C.Gaddy

All interior trim codes are two digit in 1959. Single digit codes are only used for Seville "Vicodec" roof & convertible roof colors which was not available on the Sixty Special so I have no idea what the "3" represented.

Please post a few interior shots when you can.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

wrefakis

3 items
codes
51
61
00
first "SO" tag i have seen no staples?

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: wrefakis on March 09, 2023, 10:31:49 AMfirst "SO" tag i have seen no staples?

Looks like someone removed them judging by the rust marks and holes.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute