Basecoat Clearcoat vs Single stage Lacquer.

[Michael Petti]

My 60 CDV needs a fender skirt and some repair around the skirt opening. A body shop wants to do the patch painting in basecoat clearcoat, even though the rest of the car is lacquer, and shines very nicely. Painting the entire car is not an option.  What is best? I don't want a car with a part that was obviously repainted. Will they age and shine the same? I'm sure some of you have faced this issue. I will be grateful for your advice.

[cadillac ken]

Once properly wet sanded and buffed a base coat/ clear coat cannot be distinguished from a lacquer application.  Even a single stage black urethane will be perfectly fine.

But with that said the color black is not a "no brain-er".  There are different varieties.  Some blacks are brownish, some are blueish.  A spray out card would be a wise decision and a comparison in different lighting (bright sun, indoor, incandescent, and fluorescent) would be a good Idea if you're really, really concerned and have a terrific eye for color.  Most folks would never notice such slight variations on a fender skirt---even if they were looking for it.  Which most folks are not.  Only you would know it was resprayed.

Lacquer is very old tech and not really and option for most shops anymore.  It's a crystalline type paint and as a result you see how it "crazes" over time. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I agree with Ken's comments. Black would be a difficult color to distinguish slight variation, especially on the skirts.

Once upon a time I used to insist on lacquer but found it tended deteriorate quickly which, for whatever reason never seemed to hold up as well as the lacquer applied at the factory. 

[dinhnguyen57]

Someone educate me.  Is it true that you can not spray a two-stage on top of lacquer, otherwise the two stage will peel or bubble?

[Clewisiii]

Depends on the chemistry of each material.  Not just single or two stage.  I knew a painter who said the best primer coat was a good original coat of paint.

[fishnjim]

Depends if it's aqueous two stage or reg. urethane. 
Lacquer lifts with alkyd solvents and vice versa(lacquer solvent- enamels).   The reg. urethanes don't have as much solvency and cure fast but could possibly lift.   The body shop should know about this.   They can apply a barrier coat, usually a type of epoxy primer, and that avoids the lifting problems.   
It's always better to take it to the shadow line or a trim piece than just open blend paint to paint.   Unfortunately, I don't think most of today's shops have been around long enough to have any experience with matching old paint.
This used to be a rattle can job, but I'm not sure depending where they operate they can even use acrylic lacquer commercially anymore because of the solvent emissions.   It's available and much better than regular old lacquer for stand-up.   If there's no clear coat on it now, I don't think it'll match.   You be better off with the acrylic lacquer.   Something one can't tell from pictures.
My gut tells me since it's a patch job, it'll be noticeable.   Weathered lacquer vs new two stage paint, is going to be difficult.   If they're real good experienced painters it can be done, but won't know til it over and doubt they'd suggest urethane.
Unless it's hideous/rusted through/dented, I'd pull the skirt and paint it and leave the rest alone until I was ready to do the whole car.   If it's off a tad, it won't be as noticeable as where the two are blended together on the car.   There's a clear separation between the car and the skirt that the eye won't catch.   
That could be done with a rattle can black from the local parts store.

[Michael Petti]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I think I'm hearing that I should only paint the skirt. There is no need to do anything else anyway. The skirt will have to be beaten back into shape. It has no rust so going to try to keep it. The shop I talked to today was going to strip the skirt and will paint it with what ever I want. I'm also hearing that a good paint shop can make a very descent paint match even with basecoat clearcoat. The original paint was Onyx but not sure that's what it is now. The present paint has a mirror like finish with no orange peel and I want to match that. Right now I'm vacillating between basecoat clearcoat and single stage urethane as my second choice. What do you guys think?

[dn010]

I am a big fan of the single stage urethanes, an option is to have the shop mix some clear into the single stage for even more gloss.

[goob]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I think I'm hearing that I should only paint the skirt. There is no need to do anything else anyway. The skirt will have to be beaten back into shape. It has no rust so going to try to keep it. The shop I talked to today was going to strip the skirt and will paint it with what ever I want. I'm also hearing that a good paint shop can make a very descent paint match even with basecoat clearcoat. The original paint was Onyx but not sure that's what it is now. The present paint has a mirror like finish with no orange peel and I want to match that. Right now I'm vacillating between basecoat clearcoat and single stage urethane as my second choice. What do you guys think?

Michael - you are receiving tons of info here...some very good some not so good. Any shop that's worth a darn will strip the piece before painting so you have no worries about lifting and peeling because of the old finish. Also, no worries with color match...as long as the new finish can be wet sanded and polished to match the texture of the surrounding area. You mention that the original finish was onyx...do you mean 'onyx black' as the color name or onyx as the paint brand? My suggestion is...if you trust the shop, drop off the skirt, let them do what they do and pick it up when they are done with it...believe me, after 55 years in the auto body, paint and restoration business...it is not rocket science...its just a lot of work and a great love of cars!!

Gary

[rsms]

Black can be problematic to match but it always seems to be worse when your trying to match a older black basecoat /clear job.  Over time clear coat can yellow making a single stage or fresh base/clear coat black noticeable against it.  I like to use urethane single stage in a situation like yours where there is no clear coat present as it is very durable and you don't have to worry about future yellowing.  I've been contemplating painting one of my cars in lacquer as it was originally once it's ready for paint but I haven't made my mind up yet. It
is definitely an older technology but to someone who is looking for total originality there "can" be a noticeable difference in appearances.  Whatever you decide to use make sure you use quality products and realize many companies such as PPG have a top shelf product and a production level product

[cadillac ken]

If it were mine, I choose the single stage urethane.  We do most of the pre-70 cars that are non metallic in single stage.  For the discerning eye, it tends to be a better look than the ultra glossy Base/clear in the same color.  But with that said, it is a very minute difference.   

As I said above, once wet sanded and buffed, it should be dead flat with no peel and would match the layout of the lacquer on the rest of the car.  However the key to that is waiting as long as your patience will allow.  We let our paint set for over 60 days. Over my 30 yrs in the biz. I found the longer the urethane paint sits the better and easier it buffs. Urethane paint can look great once buffed but if not fully cured it can "grow" back the slight peel you didn't see when you finished buffing it a week ago.  Dried Urethane and Cured Urethane are two different things.  Beautiful results require time--- As the Tom Petty song goes: "the waiting is the hardest  part" 

I agree with those that mention that the skirt is a separate piece and a dead match while preferable is probably not going to be as critical as a spot panel repair. 

And I also agree the part should be stripped, primed and then painted to head off any problems of incompatibility of materials down the line.

You may try Sikkens Jet Black (if they still make it) as it seems to be the purest of the blacks I've used.  We did a 1950 Mercury restoration that was painted with it and it was stunning.  Not brownish, not bluish, but a pure dark black. 

Good luck and good on you for being picky about this.  You should be. 

[dn010]

The shop should be able to get or already have paint chip charts to see what color your car is closest to instead of guessing.

[Jon S]

I tend to disagree with the comments above. Two stage paint never looks like an original lacquer paint job. As glossy as lacquer can be buffed two stage paint has a different appearance to it even when wet sanded and polished.

[Moody]

I agree with Jon. Anyone who knows paint will pick out the fake gloss of BC/CC.
Go with single stage urethane.
Dave

[TonyZappone #2624]

After 40 years in the car business, i.e one that  contained a very busy body shop, I can assure you: color coat clear coat looks different than the original finish, period.  People will argue with this statement, but just look around at car shows.  Two stage finishes are brighter, shinier, and not as the original single stage lacquers or enamels appeared when the car was new