Author Topic: 1957 Horn contact problems  (Read 695 times)

Offline artdan

  • Posts: 49
  • CLC Number: 32420
  • Name: Dan Murray
1957 Horn contact problems
« on: June 16, 2021, 07:20:07 PM »
My 57 Eldorado has a horn ring problem that we haven't been able to resolve
Currently the horns engage constantly, so my guess it is an insulator problem.
While searching the forum, I have found no diagrams showing the complete system.
The shop manual was no help either
My suspicion is that I am missing a component, but with no diagram to guide me, I am stuck.
Any suggestions?
1957 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Continental Mark II
1960 Corvette
1956 Thunderbird (sold)
1965 Buick Riviera (sold)
1975 Datsun 280 Z (sold)

Offline Jon S

  • Posts: 2559
  • Name: J. Schapiro
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 09:51:16 PM »
You have to be very careful adjusting  those two Allen head screws from the backside of the steering wheel. If they are not adjusted evenly, the horn will blow constantly.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Offline artdan

  • Posts: 49
  • CLC Number: 32420
  • Name: Dan Murray
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2021, 04:47:12 PM »
Thank you for that insight
Are there no photographs of the assembled unit, or a diagram showing which parts in what order, anywhere?
I cannot figure this out, and two different mechanics haven't a clue as to what is missing.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Continental Mark II
1960 Corvette
1956 Thunderbird (sold)
1965 Buick Riviera (sold)
1975 Datsun 280 Z (sold)

Offline J. Gomez

  • Posts: 2377
  • CLC Number: 23082
  • Name: J. Gomez
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2021, 06:52:54 PM »
Thank you for that insight
Are there no photographs of the assembled unit, or a diagram showing which parts in what order, anywhere?
I cannot figure this out, and two different mechanics haven't a clue as to what is missing.

Dan,

Have you or the mechanics checked the insulator for the horn wire at the steering column?  Sorry I'm out of town and using my cell which I hate using it. Maybe someone can share a picture of the piece I've mention.

Good luck.
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

Offline Daryl Chesterman

  • Posts: 554
  • Name: Daryl Chesterman
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2021, 07:46:13 PM »
Dan, the attached picture is from a 1959 Deville, but yours should be similar.  In the picture you will see a steering wheel puller, with the center screw "foot" resting on a socket.  Below that socket is a brass "washer" that has the horn wire soldered/welded in the center of it.  For purposes of pulling the steering wheel, I have removed the rubber insulating washer (that J. Gomez refers to as "the insulator") that wraps around that brass horn contact.  The rubber washer insulates the brass horn contact from the center tube.  If I were to have left it in place and used the puller, the rubber washer would have been destroyed.  The socket keeps the puller foot from pressing on the raised portion of the brass washer, where the wire is soldered/welded.  Sorry, I don't have a picture of the rubber washer in place around the brass horn contact.

Daryl Chesterman
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 07:49:14 PM by Daryl Chesterman »

Offline David King (kz78hy)

  • Posts: 1647
  • Check out the Eldorado Brougham Chapter
  • CLC Number: 22014
  • Name: David King
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2021, 08:00:42 PM »
I have not checked the MPL to see if the same insulator and terminal are used for 57/58 cars, but here is link to my 55 Eldorado restoration page where I comment on these parts.  I scanned original and made repos of the terminal and insulator.

http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=162955.msg483366#msg483366

Let me know if this is your issue and I can have them made.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Offline fishnjim

  • Posts: 2431
  • Name: J. Bozin
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2021, 09:10:27 PM »
There's a paper annular ring that insulates the rim from the contact, and if that deteriorates/missing, the horn will blow.   Mine caused a wire fire, so needed to be fixed.   I just made/cut one out of a plastic snap lid.   The original is thick paper, and I didn't have any that thick.   Just needs to act as a shim.   
Somewhere I got the dimensions, but I'm up from the garage for the night.   I think I posted that on '58 ownersclub. 

Offline David King (kz78hy)

  • Posts: 1647
  • Check out the Eldorado Brougham Chapter
  • CLC Number: 22014
  • Name: David King
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2021, 02:39:19 PM »
I checked the MPL and the terminal and insulator are used to '59.  "60 has something else.

Terminal P/N 5684071 (horn contact)
Insulator  P/N 265136 (Horn Contact Bushing)
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Offline artdan

  • Posts: 49
  • CLC Number: 32420
  • Name: Dan Murray
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2021, 03:31:09 PM »
I've taken mine apart to snap a few pics.
As you can see, mine is not stock. The horn ring has a gap where it is attached to the steering column. The "insulator" is custom made and holds the brass contact loosely.
I am not sure which replacement parts to hunt for.
Thanks for all your input.
1957 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Continental Mark II
1960 Corvette
1956 Thunderbird (sold)
1965 Buick Riviera (sold)
1975 Datsun 280 Z (sold)

Offline artdan

  • Posts: 49
  • CLC Number: 32420
  • Name: Dan Murray
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2021, 08:00:46 PM »
here is an image of the column with top hat and insulator
1957 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Continental Mark II
1960 Corvette
1956 Thunderbird (sold)
1965 Buick Riviera (sold)
1975 Datsun 280 Z (sold)

Offline 1959Fleetwood

  • Posts: 80
  • To drive or not to drive, that's the question !
  • CLC Number: 15331
  • Name: Matern Harmsel
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2021, 01:07:14 PM »
Hello Dan,
The top isolator can be one problem of making unwanted contact but as seen from the pictures it looks okay. The problem can also be at the lower part of the steering column were the neutral safety switch is mounted with one long screw. The middle contact of the safety switch is your horn contact that has a spring tension contact that makes contact with the yellow copper sleeve on the steering shaft. The sleeve is isolated from the steering shaft by a rubber sleeve between it. To the yellow copper sleeve is the horn wire soldered that comes from behind your steering wheel. What happens over the years is that the thin walled copper sleeve will split, spread and making contact with the long screw that holds the neutral safety switch in place or the inner wall of the steering column tube. You or your mechanic can take of the neutral safety switch and take a flash light and a mirror and look into the hole of the steering column, turn the steering shaft around to get a look on the yellow copper sleeve. If the sleeve has a split you found the problem, repairs can be done by taking out the whole steering column and take it apart to reach the broken part. New sleeves are available through Cadillac Parts LTD.
Good luck!

Matern Harmsel
CLC 15331
Matern Harmsel
CLC # 15331

1941 Cadillac series 6227D
1953 Cadillac series 6237
1959 Cadillac series 6029
1969 Chevrolet ElCamino

Offline Lexi

  • Posts: 2004
  • CLC Number: 28634
  • Name: C.R. Foley
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2021, 04:22:07 PM »
Think these disassembled steering column shots (of a '55 or '56), will help, (neutral safety switch removed). Believe the set up is consistent with or even the same. Clay/Lexi

Offline artdan

  • Posts: 49
  • CLC Number: 32420
  • Name: Dan Murray
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2021, 05:55:19 PM »
Thanks all for your input.
The picture of the column with the top hat and insulator comes from a parts dealer.
Mine is missing the top hat and a jerry-rigged insulator is attached to the top of my steering column. (the third of 3 pics I posted previously)
I have decided to get this, my mechanic is sure he can make things right with the parts I've purchased.
I just have to go hornless for a few months while I amass parts for the next trip to the mechanic
1957 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Continental Mark II
1960 Corvette
1956 Thunderbird (sold)
1965 Buick Riviera (sold)
1975 Datsun 280 Z (sold)

Offline cadparts58

  • cadparts58
  • Posts: 215
  • Name: Frank Puma
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2021, 06:54:20 AM »
I have had the steering wheel off of my 58 a few times. The insulator was deteriorated and needed replacing. What I used was called a red head. They are the plastic ends that go on the ends of electrical BX cable. They are formed round with an overlapping split to go around the wire. I used a larger one (approximately 1/2 inch). It fits snugly into the steering column. I have used them on a few cars. Mine has been on for years with no problems. If needed I can post a picture. Thanx Frank
Frank Puma #10721

Offline dn010

  • Posts: 333
  • CLC Number: 33004
  • Name: Dan Benedek
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2021, 10:19:35 AM »
Frank, I would be interested in seeing your solution. I too am without horn, my insulator broke last year removing the steering column for paint and the horns have been disconnected ever since. Cad Parts Ltd wants $50 for their insulator but they've been "out of stock" forever.
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

Offline cadparts58

  • cadparts58
  • Posts: 215
  • Name: Frank Puma
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2021, 10:54:08 AM »
Dan,
  The red head is split so it will go around the horn wire without having to cut it. You then insert it into the opening the horn wire goes thru on the steering shaft. When it is pushed into the shaft it closes itself and the top edge sets on top of the shaft creating a seal. I have attached a picture of the red head. Any electrical supply store will have these.
Frank Puma #10721

Offline dn010

  • Posts: 333
  • CLC Number: 33004
  • Name: Dan Benedek
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2021, 12:17:46 PM »
Thank you Frank. I've got a friend who is an electrician who would likely have these on hand, I will give it a try! Thank you for the photo and the suggestion.
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

Offline Lexi

  • Posts: 2004
  • CLC Number: 28634
  • Name: C.R. Foley
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2021, 12:28:36 PM »
Further to Frank's always useful tips, should you decide to remove the column and find the copper-brass component worn, I have heard that there is a fix. Apparently there is stock copper plumbing pipe that can fit over that smaller diameter inner steel tube. Not sure how tight, or loose it fits, but apparently that product is a fix for that area. My guess is that the 1 inch nominal size copper pipe is what you would need. Clay/Lexi

Offline David King (kz78hy)

  • Posts: 1647
  • Check out the Eldorado Brougham Chapter
  • CLC Number: 22014
  • Name: David King
Re: 1957 Horn contact problems
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2021, 12:49:10 PM »
I can have the terminal and insulator made if anyone needs them.

Let me know and I will find out how much, both parts should be less than $100, and the correct configuration.
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

 

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