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1937 V 12 Convertible sedan.

Started by Pm36_2, August 30, 2021, 02:42:08 PM

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Pm36_2

Hi,
I am french and have just registered.
I could be interested in buying a 1937 V12 convertible sedan.
A question about authenticity: A 1937 V12 is a model 85, but the body plate of the car I saw tells me that its design number is 7529.
Don't you think it is curious? On the internet I tried to find informations and found that 1937 V8 convertible sedans (model 75) should have a 7529 design number but that 1937 V12 convertible sedans (model 85) should have a 8529 design number. (It seems logical, first two figures = model, and final two figures, id 29, meaning convertible sedan).
My question is: Am I right? Is there a problem of identity on the car I saw? Would it be possible a V8 born car be later transformed with a V12 engine?
Another question if possible: What should be the right value of such a car in very good restored condition?
I do hope my english is understandable!
Thanks for your answers / help.

harry s

Marc, You pose an interesting question. The 1937 Series 75 and Series 85 are exactly the same with the exception of the engine. The exact production numbers of these cars are unknown. One of the officials, Matt Larson (since passed) had access to the records at Cadillac. His best estimate of production was less than two hundred of the large series convertible sedans with just over one hundred being V-8s and the remainder V-12s.
     There was a discussion on this forum a number of years ago where an owner of a 1937 convertible sedan with a V-12 engine and a 7529 cowl tag claimed his research showed the engine and chassis were original and the supposition was the factory may have been using up the engines and bodies since it was the last year for them and also the bodies which changed for 1938.
     Whether this is fact I can't say I'm just passing one what I have seen and heard. It would seem authentication could be done by matching the engine number to the frame number and also there should be a copy of the original build sheet obtainable through Allied Vaughn (their info is on the CLC website)
     As to value or pricing all of the old adages would apply. I do know it would be impossible to buy one of these cars in need of a restoration and then restoring it to concourse level for less than well over two hundred thousand.
Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

#2
There was NO 85 series in 37. Another stupid corporate move at Cadillac. There are certain things that a genuine V-12 car has. One is a choke knob & cable. I can't remember any others now.
HTH, Bob
I'll clarify what I meant. There are no 85 series data plates in 37.
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
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Roger Zimmermann

Well, in all the books I have, the 1937 V-12 is called Series 85. According to the "complete history" by Maurice D. Hendry, 474 V-12 cars were produced for that final V-12 year. The engine numbers ran from 4'130'001 to 4'130'478.
If the engine is the original one mated to that car, the engine number should appear on the engine and the frame. Unless the car is dirt cheap, it make sense to investigate those issues before you buy it.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
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Pm36_2

Hi,
Thanks for your answers.
The engine number is in the bracket (I saw it stamped on the engine itself, not on the frame, I'll ask for that) and there is a choke knob on the left of the dashboard, just over the start knob. (I also saw on photos on the net that V8 cars have not this knob)

Pm36_2

Hi,

Does somebody know where the engine number should be repeated on the frame?

KenZ

It should be on the frame just forward of the steering knuckle link.  Attached is a pic from my 1936 7529 which should be similar. Good Luck!  KenZ 

Pm36_2


Paul Tesone

Hi Marc - let me throw in my two cents worth of information - both to hopefully give you some correct information & to have others more knowledgeable than me ,  correct me . I am going through similar frustrations trying to make sense of engine numbers , chassis numbers , and title / registration numbers . My head is spinning after trying to decipher explanations in the 1937 shop manual , authenticity manual and posts made on the Cadillac Forum . This is what I understand to be the situation : the engine number on 1937 engines ( at least the V8 engines ) are stamped on the crankcase , and therefore only easily seen with the car on a lift . The 60 series start with the numbers '603" , the 65 series with "703" and the 70 & 75 series with '313" . The chassis number , which is supposed to match the engine number ( sort of ) can be easily seen on the driver's side frame rail as described by KenZ . Here's the problem : apparently , for some reason , Cadillac substituted a letter for the 2nd & 3rd numbers of the engine number when it was stamped on the frame . In 1936 the letter was A , in 1937 it was B , in 1938 it was C  . I think I remember reading that one of the explanations for this was that when it came time to match the frame with the correct engine , the letter would tell the workers what year engine to use . I don't know if there is truth to this or it's purely speculation . It would seem to me that a frame for a 1937 vehicle coming down the assembly line would have only 1937 engines available to mate with it . But what do I know ?  In any event , in my case , according to my registration , the engine number for my 6049 series vehicle should be 603xxxxz . Therefore , the chassis number should be 6Bxxxxz . For some reason , the "z" after the numbers is not on the frame , but is on the registration . I have yet to check the title to see if the letter z appears on it as well . I have not seen any evidence that an engine number in 1937 ended with a letter . I haven't figured that out yet . ..... As for your situation : 1937 60 , 65, 70 , & 75 series vehicles used V8 engines slightly larger than the LaSalle 50 series . 1937 85 series used the larger still V12 engine. These V12 engine numbers started with '413" , so the frame number should be 4Bxxxx . As others have responded , the only way to distinguish between a 75 series & an 85 series is the engine - V8 for 75 , V12 for 85 ; and frame numbers should be 3Bxxxx for 75 series & 4Bxxxx for 85 series . I am by no means an authority on these issues , and I welcome any correction of my viewpoint . .... I have had a difficult enough time figuring out reasons for the engine/chassis numbers ,  so I can't as yet offer you any explanation for why an 85 series car wouldn't have an 85 series data plate . Welcome to the world of pre-was vehicles . Paul Tesone CLC #6876 .

Pm36_2

#9
Hi,
Very interesting, thanks.
Numbers seen on the car:
Engine: 41300xy (in the right bracket for a 1937 V 12); Frame: 4Bxy (could match according to what you say, but only 4 figures: 4 for V 12, B for 1937, and then xy which is the order of this 1937 V 12 engine)
According to that and the fact it does have a choke knob, I am quite sure the car is an authentic 1937 V 12. The remaining problem is the 7529 style number on the body plate that might normally be 8529. (For information: I have seen another 1937 V 12 convertible sedan on the net which also has a 7529 style number)
You welcome me in the realm of prewar cars... Thanks a lot! I am not really a new commer, I had several prewar cars in the past, some rare as 1930's straight 8 Renault, and I still have a 1933 Packard Twelve (Packard, another great american make!)
I repeat, I hope my english is good enough to be understandable, I do not use an automatic translator.
I forgot: A build sheet has been asked to GM Heritage.

Classic

In the 2021 CLC directory in a footnote on page 85, it says that all 1936 & 1937 V12's use 70__ & 75__ body numbers rather than 80__ & 85_ body numbers.  This is confirmed by my 2 1937 V12's, both of which have 75__ body numbers. I believe that same footnote has been in the directory for many years.

Gene Menne
Gene Menne
CLC #474

Paul Tesone

Good Morning Marc - Gene seems to have beaten me to provide some additional information on this 1937 - 85 data tag issue . Nonetheless , here's references to additional posts on this subject which seems to further confirm that 1937 V12 85 series cars  used 75 series data plates . I don't know how to attach a link for you to directly access these posts , so here are the post titles which you can put in the Forum's search box : " 37-6519 Special Order ?? " started by John Christofferson on 11/11/14 , and    "1937 Cad 7519 V12 " started by T L Stinson on 4/20/05 .  Look  for John Tozer's 4/22/05 response within that post . I don't have the book he referenced to photograph for you , but perhaps someone else does . ....I do however have a photo of the dash of my 37-6049 series car that shows the presence of a choke (marked throttle ) . You seemed to indicate that the presence of a choke in the car in question was helpful in determining if the car was a 75 or 85 series . I don't know if my dash picture will help or hinder your conclusion  . ....Paul Tesone CLC #6876 .

harry s

The choke on the V-8 1937s is automatic electrically operated. The manual choke knob for the V-12s appears to be at the upper left of the dash. Paul if your throttle knob operates the choke it may be due to a carb switch to the later models otherwise the throttle knob is only for rpm control. It might be considered an early version of cruise control (heaven forbid).   Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Pm36_2

#13
I have seen the posts that Paul Tesone advises to read.
All 1937 V12 cars have 75__ style numbers on the body plate instead of the 85__ which would be logical.
So, everything now seems to conclude that the car I am interested in is a genuine V12.
Thanks for help. Very reactive forum. Very interesting chat!

Paul Tesone

Harry - thanks for clearing that up for me . You're correct - pulling out the "throttle" knob increases the rpm's . Paul Tesone CLC #6876

tozerco

Let me chime in here...

I believe that Gene Menne is correct. The 1937 Fleetwoods did NOT use the 85... series numbering, they used the 75... series numbering. It all makes some sense to me because the V12 was just a different engine in the 75 series Fleetwood car and someone figured that it didn't warrant a whole different series number just because the engine was different.

One could speculate forever on why they did this...

1. The V12 was really a V16 with four cylinders "removed" so it wasn't really a different engine... Maybe, but then how do we explain the fact that all the V8's had different engine and frame numbers for each series?

2. The V12 was a "late development" and they couldn't come up with a seperate body for it quickly... Maybe...

3. Whatever "distinction" they might have come up with in the V12 car (i.e., the car body) to differentiate it from the V16, they had to be very careful not to make the V12 TOO attractive... It might steal sales from the V16... Maybe...

4. They had a surplus of V8 bodies so plonking the V12 engines in these made sense... Maybe... Fisher AND Fleetwood both produced 75 series bodies in 1937 and GM did offer bodies to other GM factories around the world for this year... Mat Larson (RIP) did a lot of research on this for me some years ago so perhaps, in this last year of "composite" (timber framed/steel skin) bodies, they decided to use some of these surplus 75 series bodies for the V12's. Maybe... but then the 1936 V12's that I have seen are in 75 series bodies too...

5. Maybe the fact that the world (the US in particular) was well-and-truly getting over the Depression in 1937 had something to do with it...

Maybe...

John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533