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54 Fleetwood old fuel line to new fuel tank fitting issue

Started by 64\/54Cadillacking, October 03, 2021, 05:32:39 AM

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64\/54Cadillacking

I installed a brand new fuel tank from OPGI and the tank matches the original tank to perfection.

The problem I am having is I can't screw the metal fuel line into the new tank fitting. The threads won't catch although it looks like it should fit.

I think the fitting in the new tank is permanent and can't be removed. So I'm not sure what to do, any suggestions and help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

signart

Loosen the tank straps and any strap holding the fuel line to give more chance of a perfect alignment, then tighten everything back after the line is attached.
But first I would get the end off an old fuel line like this of correct size and check fit. It might chase the threads for you. I just happen to have a lot of junk around, if you don't have one, I'll send one to you.
Good Luck
Forgot to attach:
Art D. Woody

Lexi

64\/54Cadillacking, I am about to go down that road as well on my '56. I bought a new tank and with it came what I think is a brass fitting that acts as an adapter to eliminate the weird looking "ferrule" like fitting that I believe is inside the tank fitting, and is original equipment. I believe that is what effectively provides a leak proof seal. On mine, on the bench, the new brass adapter just screws right in, (without the ferrule).

The photo provided shows the edge of my new tank with what appears to be a permanent fuel output fitting attached. As you stated, and if the same, it appears permanent. To the right is that "ferrule" fitting (thanks Cadman-iac) which I think I can use along with whatever fitting is still on my car. If I choose not to go that route, then the new brass fitting which came with my tank (also in the photo next to the ferrule), can just be used to screw into the permanent tank fitting. It looks like it may have a slight taper, hence the seal achieved that way. It appears that it cannot be used with the ferrule. The silver colored "nut" or cap, pictured at the far right was screwed into the tank's female port and I believe was there to seal against contamination and not to be used for installation. Image 2 shows the full tank, red arrows from left to right: fuel outlet (with shipping plug), drain plug, sender port, vent port. Not pictured as out of camera view is the filler fuel hose (which is down near the vent tube). This is how I think it works for '56 and may also apply to '54. Any comments?

As I have yet to start this project, not sure if I must use any existing fittings from Lexi. Also, her tank was fiber glassed years ago and I am not sure just how original it may be with respect to those fittings.

If you think that the brass "adapter" will work for you and it was not included with your tank, I believe Auto City Classic Inc, (763-444-5880) is either the manufacturer or the supplier. Tom's Classics also has but think he is supplied by them. Hope this provides some clarity for your problem. Art's comment is also relevant. There may be an issue of lining up all threads for a successful installation. Like trying to line up the the choke hot stove tube with the carburetor still on the car. Can be a nasty job unless you loosen the carb's mounting bolts so you can "tip" the carb to get proper thread alignment to screw it on.

https://www.autocityclassic.com//

Clay/Lexi

Cadman-iac

  Since you have already removed your old tank, make sure that you get the small sleeve out of the tank fitting. It may be stuck slightly, but if you use a thin screwdriver with a modified tip you can hook it and pull it out. The tip needs to be very small with a slight bend at the end to grab the opposite end of the sleeve.
Like Clay said, it seals the line to the tank fitting.
I can only guess at the reason why they designed it this way. My thoughts are that it was to prevent damage to the tank fitting itself, (since it's not possible to remove and replace if damaged), by making the tapered portion removable. But if you forget it or don't know about it, you will not get fuel drawn up to your pump because it will just be sucking air. And if you fill the tank, it will leak there too.
Clay and I have discussed this at length recently, so it's still fresh in our minds.
  Also try the trick that Art mentioned. If you move the tank and or the line a little, it can help you get it lined up correctly.

Hope this helps out some.

   Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Lexi

Well put Cadman-iac, (hello Rick). Out of curiosity I installed my ferrule into the new tank fitting. Seemed to fit well. As reported earlier, the new brass "adapter" would not fit over it. That said, I had a heck of a time getting the ferrule fitting out. Rick's suggestion should work but in my case I had to use a small "L" shaped pick tool to pull it out, (as pictured). I think it was Rick who warned me that sometimes if not stuck, they can also just fall out when the line is disassembled and can be lost. Murphy's Law in action either way. Clay/Lexi

Cadman-iac

  Clay, yes, that is the type of tool I was trying to describe or suggest trying to make from an old screwdriver. And like you said, it must be pretty small to fit through the hole in the sleeve. (Good afternoon Clay).

  John, the actual sealing surface of the fuel line is the inner face of the flare, the nut just applies the force to make it fit tightly against the mating half. In this case, the mating surface is one end of that sleeve, and the other end of the sleeve then mates and seals against the bottom inside of the tank fitting.
It's kind of an odd way of doing things, but it worked, and it saved a lot of fuel tanks from having to be replaced because of damaged fittings.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

fishnjim

Is it the original fuel line and new tank or new tank new line?   Always call the vendor, at least they'll know they have a problem and may have a solution.
I bought a new OPGI fuel line and it didn't match the new tank.

Not sure if '54 has the ferrule, but they're in that period.   I reused the male end fitting off the old line because they don't make that one any more (special length) and without it and a ferrule, it wouldn't seal. ('58)   
Make sure you put a wrench on the flat on the tank fitting when you tighten.   Mine sprung a leak in the solder where it wasn't brazed right, no overlap.   

J. Gomez

Clay,

I too had to replace my gas tank recently and reused the same ferrule and same flare connector with no problems.

Quote from: lexi on October 03, 2021, 04:10:44 PM
That said, I had a heck of a time getting the ferrule fitting out. Rick's suggestion should work but in my case I had to use a small "L" shaped pick tool to pull it out, (as pictured). I think it was Rick who warned me that sometimes if not stuck, they can also just fall out when the line is disassembled and can be lost. Murphy's Law in action either way. Clay/Lexi

There is one trick I try on my side that worked but you can't disclosed it as you can see them on eBay for mega $$ just for this application.   ;D

I've used a small dry wall plastic anchor a bit smaller than the ID and hand tight the screw to span the end, this lock the ferrule and was able to rotate it free. 

Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 03, 2021, 05:32:39 AM
The problem I am having is I can't screw the metal fuel line into the new tank fitting. The threads won't catch although it looks like it should fit.

There is a possibility the starter thread may be deform; I know starting them is a PITA if you are not correctly aligned them. You can to use a spare one and see if that screws correctly or try using a tap on the first full thread just be slow as it is brass, also try signart suggestion. 

Good luck..!
J. Gomez
CLC #23082

David King (kz78hy)

I made new ferrules if anyone needs one.

$35.
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

64\/54Cadillacking

Hey guys, I was able to screw the original fuel line into the tank fitting. My tank did come with 2 adapters, one of them which is a small silver fitting screwed into the tank fitting perfectly. So that told me that the threads were good because you never know with new parts these days.

The new fitting came with white sealing tape over the threads, anyway, I was able to screw the original fitting into the tank by trial and error. I simply kept trying until the threads caught and I slowly wrenched the fitting tightly. Now this doesn't mean it won't leak because I haven't put gas in the tank yet and started the car.

BTW I didn't see a ferrule inside the old tank fitting, I am sure the new tank has one installed already if not and fuel starts leaking I will try using white sealing tape to see if that fixes it if not I'm going to ask David for one. Thank you Dave for letting us know about the ferrules you have for sale.

I'm glad I bought a new tank because I found pinhole leaks in the original tank once I cleaned out most of large chunky rust particles.

I'll report back once I get the car started and it's leak free.

Thank you all for chiming in and giving great advice I really appreciate it. 8)

Here are some pics of the fitting in one of the pictures, the fitting isn't screwed in all the way, I took the shot before I finished tightening it.. I sprayed the new tank with 3M rubberized coating which works very well and will help keep rock chips, scratches,  and moisture from possibly rusting the exterior of the tank in the future.



Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

fishnjim

Looks like OPGI had supplied an adapter for this that wasn't at first used.   
That's a regular inverted flare male fitting on the line end of the short version in the photo.
 
I suspect/guess the new tank bulkhead has NPT threads(tapered)* and the inverted threads are straight, and the source of your need for an adapter.   Straight thread will engage tapered but won't engage sufficient to provide a leak free joint - ie, what U experienced.   
The flare has to seal on the inside cone to flare flange and the nut just provides compression.   Some years require the ferrule to achieve that internal seal as the gender is opposite on the tank fitting as the end fitting.   A factory defect with an add-on solution.  However, some of the replacement tanks are exact,(as was mine) so need to be alert to this when anyone buys a tank.
* - probably the most available "weld on" type.   Hard to find IFlare weld ons in these today.

Lexi

Quote from: fishnjim on October 04, 2021, 10:57:44 AM
 
The flare has to seal on the inside cone to flare flange and the nut just provides compression.

Thank you Jose. Also, I believe Jim is correct. The seal comes from the flare fitting inside the tank with the threads providing compression. The brass adapter pictured in my above posted image that came with my new tank, appears to have the same flare to mate with the flare inside the tank, (thus eliminating the weird looking ferrule unit also in that picture). Good advice to put a wrench on the tank fitting to eliminate breaking it's seal as Jim reported earlier.

I was at NAPA today and brought both fittings, ferrule and new adapter, to see if they had any matches. Their answer was no. Nice to see David has some repros available of the ferrule. Going through the MPL I am not even sure if I have found this "ferrule" part. No diagrams. Not sure what GM even called this part, but perhaps Section 12.2860, "Spacer in Fuel tank For Outlet Pipe", (sic). Perhaps? So this ferrule might be a spacer in GM lingo? Perhaps Cadman-iac is correct when he speculated that it was best for this "spacer" to wear first, rather than the permanent tank fitting. Cheaper and easier to replace an .11 cent fitting than a fuel tank. I have not yet engaged in my fuel tank replacement, so I will be interested to see what is there and hope I have the parts to make a proper connection. Clay/Lexi

64\/54Cadillacking

Guys, I wasn't able to get my car yesterday, it was pouring rain and we had lightning strikes/thunderstorms so it wasn't safe.

I plan on finishing up later today as the weather should clear up.

Clay, let us know how your tank installation goes, we can learn from each other and  this thread could help others in the future as well that might have questions in regards to the tank and fuel line fittings in case they have issues.

Thank you for the info Jim, that's good to know. The inverted male fitting on the fuel line didn't go in smoothly, I had to be very careful while I was tightening it up since I didn't want to strip the threads as that would be all bad!

If the fitting does leak, I'll try using sealing tape first and if that still doesn't work then I will have to try using the ferrule.

Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Roger Zimmermann

Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 05, 2021, 05:37:30 AM

If the fitting does leak, I'll try using sealing tape first and if that still doesn't work then I will have to try using the ferrule.
Sealing tape on a fuel connection is something I would never do.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

fishnjim

This might be hard to visualize but sealing just the threads with tape doesn't necessarily completely seal the joint.   It only gets more complicated with the ferrule - 2 cones to seal.
If the "nut" doesn't compress the flare "top" properly, then there's a path around the flare and between the annular space with the nut and tube.   That has to also be sealed then.   So important to have a good flare end and nut.   I had this problem with the old line.   I had to cut off the nuts and reflare to the old fitting to the new line.   The old line leaked between the tube and nut.   Tube was old/bad.   
There's not a lot of thread here to tighten a metal to metal joint, so it's a bit of an art.
I won't go into the other issues, like different flare angles, types, etc. that exist and can mismatch.
SAE J512 covers the flare joint.   Specs are below.   I don't have SAE access anymore, one has to buy the entire copy.
ANSI/ASME B1.20.1 covers "NPT" national pipe thread.
They chose the I-flare for it's vibration stability.   You don't want your fuel or brake line to wiggle loose at a joint...   That's why they don't use teflon thread sealants here.   I don't know why they just don't standardize on AN (MIL spec)- probably cost.   Makes life simpler.   

64\/54Cadillacking

The fuel tank installation was a successful, besides for a very tiny  leak at the fuel line tank fitting like Jim was stating. But i got the car up and running finally.

As I tightened the fuel line fitting, it loosened up like it was stripped, but the threads aren't stripped at least I hope they're not. The problem I think is that the old male fitting is longer than the replacement one that came with the new tank therefore the fitting won't screw in all the way line the replacement one does.

I believe I'm going to have to use a ferrule like you did on your Cadillac, Jim. How do you install the ferrule in the fitting in the new tank? Does it compress in by itself after you tighten the up male fitting?

BTW if I had to replace the male fitting on the old line with the replacement fitting, how  do you remove it and install the new fitting?

Thanks guys.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

64\/54Cadillacking

Guys, I had to revive this thread because I wanted to know if these new gas tanks for 54-58 Cadillacs already have the ferrule preinstalled into the tank?

If not I think I might plan on buying one and installing it since the line leaks a little bit of gas every time I add fuel to the tank.  But it doesn't leak while running and driving which is strange. I just want to be safe and sure that a ferrule is installed, If they are not preinstalled, how do you install a new ferrule into the outlet?

Much appreciated again everyone!
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

tluke

I purchased a tank from OPGI that had a fitting that just required a flared end on the 5/16" fuel line. My 55 Cad used rubber hose for the last few inches to the tank. I didn't realized the metal fuel line was supposed to go all the way to the tank so I reproduced it using the rubber hose. I purchased a steel 5/16" brake line, cut off one end,  bent it a bit and slipped one end into the rubber tube and the other flared end into the fitting that came with the new tank (no ferrule needed). If I had known I would have taken my new copper/nickel fuel line all the way to the tank since it just needed a flared end with a standard fitting and I had to replace the fuel line anyway. See my pictures. Pic (1) the fitting as it came with the tank, Pic (2) a close up of the fitting (red box) that came with the tank connected to my brake line piece. Pic (3) is the brake line that I cut one end off but you can see it's just a flared end and standard fitting. Because the fuel line provides the grounding for the tank and sending unit, the rubber portion messes that up. I had to put a ground wire from one of the screws on the sender to the frame.
1955 Cadillac Series 75
1957 Continental Mark II
1986 Ford F250

64\/54Cadillacking

#18
Interesting way of fixing your fuel line connection to-tank problem. I'm going to have to keep your post as a reference in case I need to revert to something like what you did.

On my 54, it looked like someone cut the metal fuel off in sections in order to install an electric fuel pump that is currently mounted on the frame underneath my car.

They had to cut the line in order to install rubber hoses to the pump so it could work correctly. They obviously had issues with original pump. But I got replacement one sitting in the trunk just in case the electric pump fails suddenly, I can always convert back to the mechanical one if needed.

Thanks for sharing that with us TLUKE, I really appreciate it!

Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞