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1958 sixty special problems

Started by Jpizzle, October 08, 2021, 10:18:10 AM

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Jpizzle

So my 1958 Cadillac sixty special has had some problems with warm weather. Every time I drive it for 10 plus miles in warm weather , it takes some time to get going again after sitting momentarily. Mechanics have serviced my carb and radiator too. After I still had the same problem. The last resort was them adding a fuel injector to my engine. I want to keep the car as original as possible though. I would love  some advice or someone to put me in the right direction to address my issues. Anyone who's familiar with the 1958 model, your advice is very appreciated. Thank you.

marty55cdv

   Jabari, I would imagine the issue is the carb is "boiling over" when you shut the car off , causing a flooding situation.  You need to get the car to someone who knows the old stuff, could be needle and seats , could be float level.   Is the car in Chicago or Boston ? There should be a club member in either of those  to help you out.   Post some pics of the engine so we can see your fuel line routing etc.   Good Luck
Marty Smith
  CLC #22760
41 60 Special http://bit.ly/1Wm0GvT
55 CDV http://bit.ly/1G933IY
56 Fleetwood
1958 Extended Deck http://bit.ly/1NPYhGC
1959 Fleetwood  http://bit.ly/1OFsrOE
1960 Series 62 Coupe
1960 Sedan DeVille  4 window Flattop
63 Fleetwood http://bit.ly/1iSz17J
1964 Eldorado http://bit.ly/1Wm17GA  (Living in California now)
1988 EBC http://bit.ly/1iSACKz

Caddy Wizard

First thing to do is to check (or just replace) the fuel pump.  A weak pump will lean the engine out and will not keep the carb bowl as full as it needs. It will also cause the engine to run warmer than it should (especially at idle or low speed).  Also look for leaks in the fuel lines on the inlet side of the pump (from pump back to the gas tank).  It can suck air through any breaks in that side of the system.

Then check the fuel level in the carb (easy way to run it for a bit and then shut it off and unscrew the inspection screw on the side of the carb -- fuel should be up to the level of the screw).  Check the idle mixture for possibly being too lean.

Make sure the cooling system is working properly.  An engine that is running too hot will boil the gas.


Anyway, those are some things to start with...
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

TomJudd

Also check the heat riser valve (thermal spring operated ) located on exhaust mainifold. When cold the valve butterfly shuts diverting all exhaust from that side thru the intake under carb. If free ,supposed to open allowing ex to free  flow thru pipe, not thru intake. Will cause hot carb/boiling gas and vapor locks.

Jpizzle

@marty55cdv. The car is in Chicago. I'm away in Boston atm. Thank you for the info art and Tom. Anyone have any good mechanics or anyone that can address these situations? I can send the car wherever.

fishnjim

What exactly does it do or don't do to "takes time to get going again"?   
Way too vague.   I can guess, but won't help.   
eg; cranks but no start; not cranking fast, too slow until it cools and speeds up; no spark; catches, coughs, and dies, etc.   Fuel in the fuel bowl, choke is open fully?
Mileage?    Last overhaul or major repair.   How well does it run when it does run?   Last time the fuel system was serviced?

Jpizzle

@fishnjim yes. It cranks but but no starting after I drive it a while. This is specific when the weather is very warm and I drive it for a while. Then as I park it and start it back up, it cranks but doesn't start. The fuel lines were said to be worked on but not very sure. Fuel tank has been cleaned too. There's not major wear on the car, it has 30k original miles. When it runs, it runs very well. Just not on a sunny hot day.

wheikkila

Good evening
From your description it sounds like your carburetor is boiling out. I would start by checking the heat riser. Then I would check the fuel pressure. I think you will find something in one of these two places.
Thanks Wayne   

V63

Verify your engine is keeping cool enough.
Is your carburetor the Carter AFB? or Rochester?
The problem is exasperated by today's alcohol blended fuel.
If you will not be operating it in the Dead of winter, you might consider BLOCKING the center exhaust ports in the center of your intake manifold.
Olson's gaskets offerers these modified gaskets. Blocking these 2  ports keeps excessive heat from the carburetor.

TomJudd

relative to heat riser , I have disabled mine 2 cars . 58 and 59. On one the mechanism was free, but I wired it open. On the other that was seized, I removed the butterly valve. In addition I rerouted the fuel line away from engine with a steel inline filter. Mine would run all day continuous in heat, but when parked for 10 minutes or more , the fuel system would "heat soak ". Would take near an hour to cool down, then presto- amazo ,restart and run !! After several frustrating bouts of this I did something different. I had a cooler with drinks and an ice bag in car. I placed the ice bag on the pump and car restarted in less than 10 minutes!! Something else I did was two fold solution. I installed an inline elec pump just before the mechanical pump. (size of d cell battery,and would allow free flow of fuel thru when de energized. If vapor lock occurred, I would activate the elec. pump and it would run properly.  I also activated the elec pump when the car hadnt been driven for a while, as to prime the carb. before starting. I ran a wire from the pump thru the firewall , and terminated the power lead with a cigar lighter 12 v male . I fed the pigtail thru a hole in back of glove box. When I needed to use the pump, I simply plugged into cigar lighter! For quick engine start after sitting for weeks, I would crank the engine over til oil light went out. Then plug in elec pump, depress gas pedal couple times, then fire right up ! (no long cranking to get fuel to carb). Then after started, unplug pump lead and stow in glove box.

Lexi

#10
Some argue that an electric pump should not use the same fuel line as an operational mechanical pump, especially if installed before the M pump. Perhaps someone more qualified than myself can chime in on that.  :-\

I installed an electric pump which uses a separate dedicated line. It "T" connects in between the mechanical pump/filter and carb, so the M pump is entirely by-passed. The E pump also has its own separate filter. I connected it to a toggle switch and can only run if ignition & pump's switch is on. No chance of it running when shut off, a major safety concern otherwise. The wiring installed runs in split, plastic conduit tubing, for protection.

I only use it as Tom suggested to assist in starting when hot or after not driven for a while, to save the starter motor as per Tom's recommendations. It can also run simultaneously with the mechanical pump if need be. Next time your crank no-start happens it would be interesting to take Tom's advice and cool off the mechanical pump with an ice bag or by carefully pouring cool water over it to see if your problem is more quickly resolved. This cooling down procedure is said to dissipate the vapour inside the pump which can impede the flow of fuel.

Attached is a diagram for the above noted set up as sketched by a former CLC member and posted on the old Mid Century Cadillac CLC Forum site. Has worked for me, though I ran a metal line from the E pump and only used a short run of easily replaceable rubber fuel line just prior to the T connections noted. I also used brass T connections, not plastic. Remember to install that line's own fuel filter! In my case, the E pump came with it's own metal cased filter which is attached directly to the pump. Clay/Lexi

TomJudd

I had to do bunch of research and trial and error to find a e pump @4=5 psi and free flow thru !! Airtex E pump. Never had further problems as installed...4=5000 miles. While some say, and I agree, the best location for e pump is near tank. Pumps like to pump not suck !! This was a temporary fix which became a working set up. I forgot to add, I also wrapped all steel lines near engine w split rubber fuel hose to help insulate. Not stock or pretty, but I drive em. Nothing modified which cant be returned to bone stock.....KISS

Lexi

Tom, yes they are more efficient at pumping hence best to keep as close to tank as possible. But what is a "free flow thru" type that you mentioned, and does it differ from other electric pumps? My buddy eventually removed his fuel pump and I presume the pump's push rod, closed off the fuel pumps mounting port with a metal plate, then reinstalled a now gutted OEM pump just for looks. Then he routed fuel through the non-functional pump. At that point he solely relied on the E pump. Clay/Lexi

TomJudd

Free flowing meant that you could basically suck through in the direction of flow with little to no resistance. (by mouth). If I recall I spoke with techs at airtex and recommended a diaphram type pump ?? They recommend a particular pump. $30 or so. I set 2 caddys up like that. Now Ill throw a wrench in the works ! Upon purchasing another pump ,same part number, it didnt free flow. Called tech again and was told the product line was sold to another company, and they had inadvertently changed pump type and kept same part # ???  I found a source that had older stock of the pump that was correct. The e pump was approx 2 inch dia and 3 inch long. Simple functional and longevity proven. Can dig up part # if any interest. My latest 58 has more standard e pump installed in forward area near power ant motor by PO. So far so good. Not gonna change for now; debugging other stuff. Im dreading replacing ANOTHER heater core.(diff 58 ) What a job. Core was easier to do when I had instrument cluster out for service.  Drive it !!

Lexi

Does that mitigate any issues that may arise by pumping fuel through an operational mechanical fuel pump, with an electric pump? Some say that an E pump on the same line as the mechanical pump is not recommended, (especially if mounted before the M pump). Did your tech have any comments on that? I have read pros and cons on both, but would be interested to learn what (if any) issue, there is using both pumps on the same line, in that configuration. That said, a buddy has run his '57 Caddy that way since at least the late 1970s with no apparent issues. So I am a little confused due to the conflicting online information. Thanks for the offer of digging out the part number Tom, but I do not require it. My system so far after some 8,000 mile seems Ok. I seem to recall my pump being a Carter and so far so good. I can also look for that part number if anyone is interested. $30 for a pump is a fantastic price, and thanks for the warning about another company changing the pump type but retaining same part #. Good luck on your heater core project.  :)
Clay/Lexi