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Rebuilding 1960 CDV Pioneer Antenna

Started by Michael Petti, October 26, 2021, 04:56:52 PM

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Michael Petti

I am trying to rebuild this antenna. It ran very slowly, but it did run. after cleaning and greasing every thing the motor runs great, but the mast moves more slowly than ever. I took grease out of the cable container and wiped grease off the cable. Clutch spins the disc that is supposed to grab the cable and move it but it may be slipping. I think I'm on the verge of getting this working. Should there be grease in the cable container? Should the cable have grease on it? Is it possible that the nylon cable has become hard to the point that the teeth on the disc won't grip it? I'm at a loss. This antenna came form a pats car that sat in a barn for a very long time.

Cadman-iac

#1
  I think your antenna looks like this one, or is very similar. (First picture)
The piece you're showing is the drive, but also a guide for the cable as it comes out of the mast and is guided into the housing where it is stored in a thin ring like cup inside the housing.
A question, is your motor running at a normal speed, or dragging like the mast is stiff or bent?
To answer your question, from all of the antennae that I've looked at and repaired so far, none have any grease on the cable itself. That would cause it to slip and the friction is what drives it basically.
The section that you took apart to get to the piece in your picture is what I would call the clutch drive and guide plate, and the tension on the spring in the middle is what determines how much force it takes for it to begin skipping over the two bumps in that guide plate.
Farther down inside the assembly is a series of small gears that reduce the speed of the motor to a lesser speed for the cable drive. If you're having a slow moving mast but it's not jumping or stopping in the middle of travel as it goes up or down, you may have to go farther into it to remove the old grease and add fresh. I've noticed that the grease they used gets dried out or hardened over time.
If it does stop halfway or anywhere besides the ends of travel and then starts moving again, can you hear the clutch clicking when that happens? If so, then you can adjust it a little tighter so it overcomes the friction of the mast and cable as it's moving through the unit.

  Ok, the series of pictures I just posted shows the "clutch" assembly as it is coming off. The adjustment for it is in the two nuts on the top. The lower one loads more pressure onto the spring the farther down you tighten it, and the second nut is to lock the first one in place. When the mast reaches one end of travel or the other, or is obstructed, this clutch will click as it skips over the two bumps in that plate.

To get to the gears that slow the motor speed down so you can refresh the grease and clean it up, the two Phillips head screws have to come out. The unit separates at the little groove that I have a pencil pointed at, and it may be difficult to get apart. There is the close fit between the two pieces, and also 3 small shafts that the gears are mounted on that fit into each half of the housing. Besides the gears, there are tiny spacers of different lengths, and a couple of tiny wave washers.
If you need to see pictures of this portion of the unit, let me know. If you can fix it with what I've already posted, great. Otherwise I'll be glad to take mine apart and show you what to expect.
I've already been into this antenna and if I don't need to do it again, that's good.

  Just something I thought about, and I don't know if this would work, but have you tried to tighten the grip of the clutch drive plate on the cable by squeezing it at the notches where it grips the cable? If your cable is worn down slightly and the drive doesn't grab it as it should, It probably wouldn't take much to get it to grab better.
I haven't had an antenna that would slip that this might be a fix for. I have had some that the mast was binding on and the clutch was skipping. Fixing the mast bind usually takes care of it, but tightening the clutch spring also works. The difference is that the spring adjustment doesn't fix the binding issue, it just overcomes it. The correct way is to fix the binding.
  I hope this has been helpful. Let me know if you need more information.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Cadman-iac

#2
  Michael,

  I thought I had forgotten to take pictures of the last time I was inside one of these antennas, but I found them a little bit ago.
Here's what the gear reduction portion of it looks like. As you can see, there's 4 larger gears that mesh with the motor on one side and the clutch drive on the other.
  The clutch drive has its own large gear in addition to the other 4. When you separate the unit, sometimes one of those shafts and a gear will remain in the clutch half housing. Just be careful that you don't lose one of the spacers that go between a gear and the housing. One of them will have a wave washer that goes against the clutch drive housing as well.
The third picture is the cable housing. As the mast comes down the cable gets routed into this piece to keep it from getting snagged on anything in the housing. It's easy to forget to install this as you're reassembling the housing halves. It goes in with the open side towards the clutch.
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Michael Petti

Richard. Thank you for the very detailed response. You don't need to take yours apart, but thanks anyway. Right now, I have rewired the motor and taken apart the gears and cleaned and greased them with white grease. I reassembled the 2 halves and the motor runs great with no load in both directions. and the gear for the clutch turns fine. The mast moves quite freely when I move it up or down by pushing or pulling the nylon cord manually. Right now the issue is  that the round piece I showed above will not grab the nylon cord unless clutch very tight and them motor slows considerably, When it does grab there is lots of slippage. The ball bearings never "click" over the raised notches on the clutch plate, I will go back and degrease the nylon cord to see if it helps. It's interesting that the Caddy Daddy video on U-Tube says to grease the cable. Given that the slipping was going on for a long time is it possible the notches in the clutch plate have worn and could I bend them in a little more to grab the cord better, or has the nylon cable been worn down and need replacing, or a little of both.

Cadman-iac

  Hi Michael,
  The grease definitely doesn't help, because it relies on the friction between the clutch drive plate and the cable to move the mast. After cleaning the grease off of the cable assembly and the drive, you may also want to take the mast apart to get the grease that is present in there cleaned up as well, otherwise it will just transfer to the cable as it travels back through the lower mast sections.
The more it has slipped in the past, the more it has caused minute wear on both pieces, and the grease only aggravates the problem.
If this doesn't improve the performance of the antenna, then you might want to consider "adjusting"  the drive plate by squeezing it together at each of the notch locations in order to get it to grip the cable more. I would use a pair of wire side cutters to make the adjustment, as it will only be pressing on the very thin edge of the cutter and will give you a closer match to the factory notch. But be gentle, it shouldn't take much to get it to grip better.  Too much and the cable won't go into the channel, which will cause other issues.
Try test fitting the cable into the plate as you're doing this to make sure it's not too tight, but also that it indeed has a grip on the cable.
   I'm sure that you've noticed that it's easier to assemble the clutch before you install the cable. You can assemble the clutch with the cable already in place, but it's more difficult. You have to keep pressure on the drive plate while you're trying to get the pin through the shaft and keep everything aligned at the same time, and keep the shaft from dropping down into the gear section. It takes 4 hands with 7 fingers each that way.
  Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Moody

I hope everyone realizes we are talking about two different antennas. Pioneer vs Tenna.
Surely they work similarly, but I believe the internals are different.
Dave
Moody

Michael Petti

Richard's suggestion to use a side cutter as pliers to "bend' the teeth on the disc a little worked great. i got the antenna to raise and lower at a quick clip until i go to the 3rd section of the mast. There is serious resistance there. I can move it manually but there is resistance. Has anyone else encountered this problem? I have rubbed it with steel wool and sprayed it with dry lubricant to no avail. Does this mean the mast is toast?

Cadman-iac

  Michael,

Is your mast straight? Any bend will cause it to bind. I had to take mine completely apart and roll each piece over a flat surface to determine exactly where it was distorted, and then straightened it.
  Does yours have the small washer piece that fits into the base of the actual mast with two small tabs? If so, it can be removed in order to clean up the inside of the mast section.  I used brake cleaner and a small piece of paper towel and pushed it through the mast with a small rod. That cleaned it up fairly well, then I used a silicone spray to lubricate it. Once reassembled, you can wipe off the excess lubricant.
Just be careful removing and reinstalling small washer, or cable guide at the base. It's tricky, but doable.
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Michael Petti

Well, after much aggravation I got the whole thing apart. The issue is that the mast is bent ever so slightly. As it rises it's the last section to come up that is bent. What is the best way to straighten it? I have tried locating the bend with a straight edge and then bending the other way. It helped but did not solve the problem. Silicone spray helped but did not solve the problem. I found a replacement mast on evil bay for $500.00, out of the question. Is there a replacement at a reasonable price? I'll keep trying to straighten it . We'll see.

Cadman-iac

Hi Michael,

   I'm sorry to hear that your antenna mast is bent. I've had 2 that I thought were lost causes, but after messing with them for some time, I was able to get them straightened out and working well.
One even had started to crack at the bend, and it took me a good while to finally fix.
Once you identify the high spot as you roll the section across a flat surface, mark it with a magic marker or something similar.
  You just have to apply pressure with your hands as if you are trying to bend it yourself in the opposite direction. Only you are trying to reverse the bend. Go slowly, as it's easy to go too far. Use your thumbs to press on the high spot, but be careful, you could kink it if you press too hard.
Another trick that I tried in addition to bending it with my hands was using a flat headed body hammer. I tapped it on the high spots as I rolled it back and forth, but only roll it about half a revolution, so you're only hitting it on the high side. The tapping I think kinda relieves the stress in the metal. It's something that I've learned from doing bodywork. (And no, I'm not good at bodywork, lol !!).
These are not perfect methods, but it's the best way I've tried. I wish I had another way that I could tell you about that works better. But maybe someone else here knows a better method. My method takes patience and a lot of time if the bend is very bad. But as long as it's not actually kinked and cracked, you have a good chance of getting it back to straight.
I know, old Cadillac power antennas and parts are outrageously priced. I just bought a cable and top mast section for my 56. It was the only one I've ever seen so I jumped on it.
  If I can help you with any other questions, please let me know.  I'd be glad to try and answer them. Best of luck with it. I hope it works out.

  Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Michael Petti

Rick, thank you very much. If nothing else you have go en me a way forward to straighten it. I will try to straighten it. Any suggestions on lubricants in this modern day would ne welcome.

Cadman-iac

  I honestly don't know what if anything that GM used on the masts. It would have to be a really light type of grease if anything,  because of the drag any other type would cause in cooler weather.
I've just been using silicone spray lubricant for mine. It's extremely thin, and if you apply too much, it wipes off very easily.
If you use something like lithium grease, use it sparingly for that same reason. Grease thickens the colder it gets.
Have you cleaned out the inside of each piece of tube? I used a spray brake cleaner on a small piece of paper towel, inserted it into the tube and ran it through to the other end with a small rod and then back again to make sure there wasn't any old grease or dirt or anything else stuck inside them that would interfere with the pieces moving inside each other. Because it's impossible to clean one when it's on the car. Some dirt or dust can work it's way between the sections of mast, and can stick to any type of lubricant that was used in assembly. That gives you a fresh start with the mast, you'll know that if it's hanging up somewhere, it's at least not dirt causing it. It might take a couple passes with a fresh piece of paper towel too, if it's really dirty.
But the best thing I've found so far is the silicone spray lubricant.

Good luck, and have a good weekend.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

The Tassie Devil(le)

I wouldn't have thought that there would be any lubricant within the mast sections, as it wouldn't take long for problems to arrive, especially in dusty areas, and that would lead to massive numbers of Warranty Claims.

Easier to leave them dry, and once the warranty period was up, not a problem. ;)

All the masts I have pulled to pieces, there is a pair of brass sleeves at the bottom of each moving section to act as a rattle-stop.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Cadman-iac

  That's true Bruce, I think the grease that I've found inside the masts was probably transferred from the cable as it goes in and out of the drive housing, which does have some grease in it.
Those tabs, if this particular antenna has that design, are also stops to keep the smaller sections from coming out too far or altogether from the section that surrounds it.
I've heard that wax on the mast can also help the pieces slide easier, but it's harder to apply, and the chances of bending it while applying the wax are greater. At least that's my opinion on it. If you use a spray wax, maybe not so much.

Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Michael Petti

Got it back together and mast goes up and down nicely now, except there is still some resistance after the 3rd piece of mast gets about 1/2 way up. mast seems straight when rolled on a flat surface. I am going to try to adjust the clutch to slip when it gets to the resistance. The other option is that I know how far up it can go and just be careful. Thanks for all the help soo far. It really made this job easier that if I had to start from scratch.

Cadman-iac

 Glad to hear you got it working better. The sticking point you mentioned, does it make the motor stop, or will it push through that point and keep moving until it reaches the end of travel?
Loosening the clutch would work if you don't mind it not reaching maximum height, but if it ever develops another "catch" somewhere, that might prevent the antenna from being fully retracted if the clutch adjustment is light enough to skip on the slightest resistance.
Have you checked the main outer stationary tube for any bends or kinks like if someone had had it apart once before and didn't realize how to disassemble it, maybe they bent that tube. That would explain why the bottom movable mast section is catching even though it's straight. The bottom end of the moving tube is slightly larger in diameter to act as a stop so it doesn't simply keep traveling right out of the tube it's in. It's this larger diameter that can catch on a bend or kink in the stationary tube. Just a thought.
If I remember right, to remove the stationary tube from the mast housing, you will have to un-solder the connection for the cable where it's attached to the tube. The cable should be long enough to be able to wrap around the tube 2 or 3 times, which will allow you to slide the tube some in order to get the solder point into the hole so your soldering iron will reach it. Once unsoldered, you can slide it down and out of the housing to check it for any bends. Use your larger moving section to determine where the catch is located. If you know how far it goes before the catch, you should be able to pinpoint the problem if that's really what it is.
Michael, I hope this will help out. Good luck.
   
Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Michael Petti

Rick: I did what you suggested including unsoldering the wire for the connector. I found no bends or kinks.
Polished everything with fine steel wool and wiped down and used silicon spray. The clutch idea did not work so I adjusted it to where it was when I took it apart. It's back together and it works just will not raise it all the way up. From a time/cost/benefit point of view, its fine.  I now need to get a new bracket as the old one broke, but I think a local machine shop can make me one using the old one as a template.  Thankyou for all the help.