What's the Consensus on Fuel Injectors?

[Jason Edge]

Back Story: I've put about 4K miles on my 2013 Escalade EXT since buying it in July with 89K miles (now 93K mile), including a 1200 miles for the CLC Reunion in FL (I'm in NC), and the vehicle has run like a boss.  Friday, I was about 20 miles from home and the Check Engine Light came on and it started running a bit rough.  Plugging in my scanner I got a P0304 code which decodes to misfire on #4 Cylinder. I got it home and immediately checked #4 plug and plug wire, which I had already replaced after buying the car and all looked good. From there I assumed either the ignition coil for #4 cylinder or the fuel injector. I had already changed out the 8 ignition coils on my 2002 EXT a few years back as the tip of one broke off when I installed the plug wire, and it did seem to run better with new ignition coils, so with a $99 Amazon Prime price, with free next day shipping, and free returns, buying all 8 for the EXT was a no brainer!  They arrived yesterday, and installed the #4 ignition coil only, and it fired right up, fixed the problem, resolved! Yay!!

Question on Fuel Injectors:  So during the 1 day period I was waiting for my ignition coil, I researched fuel injectors a bit. I have never installed them but look pretty straight forward, just unbolt a hold down bar, and they pry up with O rings sort of holding/sealing them in place.  I looked at pricing with Amazon, AutoZone, Napa, etc. and saw I could get them $29 to $59 each ... a bit more than the ignition coils but still not too bad.  So, here is the real question, is it a good idea to replace the fuel injectors after say 100K miles (give or take) or should you just keep running fuel injector cleaner through the tank hoping for the best?  I consulted my uncle Google and it seems the consensus is all over the place .. some say never need to replace unless one goes out, to some people saying replace after 50K or 100K miles and be done with it. My vehicles are like family to me, and I'm not going to quibble over a few hundred $$ if it gives me the piece of mind that the vehicle will run optimally?

So for now ... I am just going to replace the other 7 ignition coils. No this is not a "Classic" but as our "newer" fuel injected vehicles age out I am curious if any of you are changing out the fuel injectors, or just running cleaner through the tank, etc? 

[James Landi]

Jason,

Such an interesting question.  It sparked (pun intended) my memory of the first time I took my 83 Eldo in for a "service soon" indicator light.  I discovered that "service" had replaced one plug and wire... asked the service manager, "Why not replace all wires and plugs"  -- His response, " An unnecessary expense, with ECM's, we fix only those components that are not working."   I drove (and babied) that 4100 for 315K miles, and I suspect many of those original equipment expensive plugs were never changed.  So as my old man used to say, "If it's not broke, leave it alone" Preventative maintenance is important, but replacing parts that are working as they should only risks accidently breaking something in the process, and, as we've learned, some aftermarket parts are cheap and subject to premature failure. (another Old Man quote: "If you're looking for trouble, you'll find it.)  As for fuel injectors, there are "clearners" that appear to clear up ineffective spray patterns. Additionally, most modern engines cars keep running well for 150K miles, and I have seen well running "modern" Cadillacs and other makes that are running strong, well past 250K.  Will be interesting to hear other opinions-- again, great question,  James

[Jason Edge]

Just to add a bit, my first comment to my wife when I got home was "I am glad this did not happen in Florida!" This would have turned out to be a much different story if that ignition coil had went out while I was at the CLC Event 600 miles from home.  It would have involved a AAA tow to garage and who knows what type of cost, not to mention the embarrassment and perhaps missing out on part of the event. There is not much I will not tackle at home, but away on an interstate, I'll speed dial AAA before the car stops rolling if I don't think the car will make it to its destination.  When my check engine light came on Friday I was on Interstate 40 packed in with heavy traffic bee-lining it for home. At first I thought the fuel pump might be going out, before I could get my code reader plugged in ... but it took the gas well just ran a bit rough, like when a plug wire is off.

I will add that when I buy any replacement part I spend a LOT of time reading reviews, comparing part #'s and what different websites have to offer. There is indeed junk out there but if you shop around I have found some good parts and of course whose to say what we will be confronted with in 10 years. I'm 55 years old and plan to be around a while longer and my 2002 and 2013 EXT's are here to stay (and of course my 64 CDV), and when I find a good deal on something I know I might replace later I will jump all over it.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I would suggest Techron fuel additive every so often - perhaps once or twice a year and let it go at that. The number of things that could disable a vehicle are virtually limitless and it would be impossible to safeguard against every one of them. Where does it start and where does it end? 

In any case, a single faulty injector usually doesn't render a car completely immobile.

[hornetball]

I'm leery of aftermarket parts these days . . . especially the China crud that Amazon has.  On a modern car, only fix what's broken and pay up for OEM parts if possible.  Even with OEM you will have out-of-box failures.

[Jason Edge]

I am really just trying to understand if anyone considers the fuel injectors a "maintenance item" that might should be replaced perhaps after a certain # of miles like say a spark plug, or like rebuilding a carb after x number of miles? The owners manual for the 2013 only addresses fuel injectors in this  manner:
"For customers who do not use TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline regularly, one bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment PLUS, added to the fuel tank at every engine oil change, can help clean deposits from fuel injectors and intake valves."

I guess I over-thunk-it when I started looking around for a fuel injector not knowing if my ignition coil would solve my problem,  but did wonder if anyone else changed out their fuel injectors. I'm definitely of the mindset that you shouldn't fix something that is not broken, but I could see a fuel injector as something that perhaps degrades after 10 years and 100K miles on the clock.  I am definitely leaving them alone but will beef up on a quality fuel injector cleaner. 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

It's almost like asking how long the engine itself will last which will vary significantly depending on any number of factors. Basically indefinite.  In any case, I don't see injector wear/reliability as necessarily mileage-dependent and GM's statement seems to coincide with that - especially in most modern vehicles. These days it's not uncommon to see late-model vehicles with mileage in the multiple 100,000s still largely untouched.

In my experience, it has almost always been the case that age plays a far more critical role in a vehicle's overall reliability than mileage - assuming normal maintenance is practiced.   

[V63]

I believe in running 'marvel mystery oil' in the fuel as a Fuel system lubricant . The alcohol blends are very 'dry' compared to pure gasoline.

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Jason, my mother owns a 2004 Lexus ES330 that just hit 200K miles and the engine and trans runs like it's brand new still but I help maintain it for her too.

Well 2 weeks ago the check engine light randomly  came on setting a P430 code which is a catalytic converter flow issue. I've watched a ton of YouTube vids on what's the best fuel treatment additive that has the best cleaning power, and just about all of them that tested Berryman B12 Chemtool that went up against the likes of Seafoam, MMO, Techron, Gunk etc... the B12 beat them all in terms of carbon deposit reduction and cleaning power.

So i put a full bottle of B12 in the fuel tank of her Lexus, and within about 60 miles of driving, the check engine light turned and has stayed off. The Chemtool obviously cleaned up the Cat, and the entire fuel system better than anything else I've used in her car.

My recommendation is try using a bottle or 2 of Chemtool in the tank, and then follow up with some MMO because the Chemtool is very harsh and caustic and can dry things out. Marvel will help lubricate the fuel system again and help with your fuel injector problems. But the Chemtool is what will truly clean things up, it's the only fuel cleaner on the market that uses super strong solvents, not petroleum distillates and might even increase fuel economy and power as it has Acetone in it.

[Jason Edge]

Some good replies. Just to note I have always used fuel injector cleaner of some sort intermittently in all vehicles since I have owned fuel injected vehicles since the 80's. I am sure products like Marvel Mystery Oil and STP products, etc. were used early on (80's and 90's), then remember getting turned on to Seafoam at some point and have used B12, Techron, Liqui Molly and a few others over the past few years.  I remember the Berrymore B12 has more solvent which can be good or bad over the long haul.

If you look on the websites trying to compare the two you often run into comments like this: "I have successfully cleaned the junk out of the end cap of the injector by removing the injector and spraying a cleaner up inside the cap....flushing it away. However, that requires removal of the fuel injector..."
which leads my back to my original thinking... why not just replace them with new fuel injectors if
1) you can find good quality replacements (from my research they are out there)
and
2) they are in your budget.

I do think we might sometimes have a perceived notion that our car still "runs like new"  when they really do not run like new.  When something deteriorates over years or decades it can be hard to detect! On my 2002 Escalade EXT now with about 160K miles, there have been times I thought it was running like new, but something happened and I replaced items and it ran much better.
Here are 3 case in points.

1st: About 3 years ago, I started getting codes for the sensors behind the catalytic converters. I replaced both Catalytic converters and man, it came a alive. Punch the gas and it would just flat out good. My memory of how well it did run and could run had failed me.

2nd: at about 150K miles (about 2 years ago) I decided to replace the spark plugs.   When I started pulling the plug wires off (yes I pulled by the boot) the inside of the 7 of the 8 crappy AC Delco plugs wires came apart and I had to crimp the ends back on just to get it running. Just to back up, I had put these recommend GM AC Delco wires on the car probably fires years earlier. They were crap, crap, crap!  As soon as I could search around I picked up a set of Made in USA Edelbrock 8.5mm Max Fire 22716.  I really didn't notice much different replacing the plugs but going with those thick quality Edelbrock wires really made a difference.

3rd: and this stems from the 2nd point above. When I was installing one of the plug wires one of the plastic terminals on the ignition coil  broke off. Knowing a regular coil can go back over 150K miles I thought well why not these individual coils. Regardless, I decided to replaced all 8 coils and that is when it really made a difference.   

The point being at any particular time before I got the code for Catalytic converter, or the plug wires broke, or the ignition coil broke and all were replaced, I was comfortable in my mind that the car I had been driving for 15 years still run like new.. which was actually far from the truth.

Still having a bit of hot rod heart, I am also always looking to tweak performance here and there. My 2013 EXT has a rated 403 HP, and replacing that one ignition coil made it suddenly run better than it had ran since buying it in July. I just replaced the other 7 ignition coils and look forward to giving it a spin it a bit. It might be overkill but I can attest replacing them on my 2002 made a different.
As far as the fuel injectors I will continue to periodically run the better cleaners... but I know if one over did go out I would probably just replace them all be and be done with it.

[MaR]

I would be hesitant to use an aftermarket injector unless it's been verified as equal to OEM or better. I also would not replace the injectors unless you know that they need to be replaced.

[J. Gomez]

Jason,

I have done the work on the fuel injectors on my wife old car (European sport car) in line 6 before we sold it.

I was able to refurbished them with new filters (a bit tricky to get them off the injectors  ), "O" rings (available kit on-line) and clean them with carb cleaner and applying voltage to the solenoids while forcing the cleaner through them. There are videos on how to perform the cleaning and connecting them to a DC source (I've used a fresh 9V on my process with no problems)  .

I'm not sure if the GM models have filters on them which could save you a bit of time if you want to tackle the work yourself. You may need to rig a connector to attach the carb cleaner small red pipe over to the injector inlet and maybe a couple of alligator clips for the power but again there are videos on some of those mods to get them cleaned.

Good luck..! 

[Jason Edge]

I'm not sure if the GM models have filters on them which could save you a bit of time if you want to tackle the work yourself.

From what I am seeing with the new injector their is no filter, and the O ring comes with it, but you can buy just the O-ring kits, retainers, etc. separately.  They say to lube the O ring before it is installed.  If I ever had one go bad I would talk it over with my local mechanic that deals with stuff like this just about every day, and get their input. They take on stuff I don't have time for or don't feel comfortable doing myself. I will say that while I am reading all the negative comments about aftermarket or even AC Delco replacement parts, I would be much more prone to just replace with new if I dug in to the point I had a bad fuel injector in my hand. I am just seeing too many positive recent reviews to not trust going with a new one. 
Again this was really not my question, which was really asking is it a good idea to change all injectors at some point ... say 100K miles to get peak performance.  It seems the consensus has been no, just use good fuel injector cleaner and do not replace (or try to refurbish) until one fails.   

[savemy67]

Hello Jason,

In the 26 years I owned my '95 Impala, The only fuel system issues I had were the fuel pump (had to replace), and the fuel pressure regulator (also had to replace).  I never touched the injectors, and always used premium grade fuel as called for in the owners manual - never any additives (they are in the fuel from the pump).

Since the fuel system is a closed system (except when you fill up at the pump), it is difficult for dirt to get into the fuel system to foul the injectors.  If you buy bad fuel, you can introduce dirt into the fuel system.  If you go long periods of time with a low level of fuel in the tank, you may get condensation in the tank.  As I recall, water is heavier than gasoline, so, undisturbed, water should settle to the bottom of your fuel tank, where it may or may not get sucked up by the fuel pump.  Depending on the amount of water ingested by the fuel pump, you may get a transitory problem with an injector.

Unless your Escalade has direct injection, where the nozzle of the injector is in the combustion chamber, I do not consider injectors a maintenance item, and would not replace one until the ECU/DTC indicated a need for replacement.

Respectfully submitted,

Christopher Winter

[Jason Edge]

If you go long periods of time with a low level of fuel in the tank, you may get condensation in the tank.

That should not be a problem for me as I fall into the category of drivers that like to keep the tank near full! I also appreciate the feedback. I guess the thing is you assume you are always getting good gas, regardless of the label, but you never know, especially when traveling and have to make the pit stop in unknown territory! 

I guess my main issue is understanding how a fuel injector does or does not get fouled over time.  Does it have to always be bad gas or can they age out from use, or get clogged from gas residue, deposits, etc.  It has always been my assumption that fuel injectors could and would start to foul with age just from use, gas deposits, etc.  Perhaps that is where I erred.

I will say that I see dozens of pictures of pulled used injectors when I search fuel injectors that look less that pristine and pretty fouled, and on a site  such as the Seafoam site (who of course are trying to sell a product) they state the following:

"Regardless of the type you have, a modern injector's job is the same: to deliver a measured amount of fuel to the cylinders in a precise spray pattern, at specific intervals. An array of sensors control those functions, and injectors themselves are made up of many moving parts.
After heavy use, those parts can wear and lose their function, and seals around injectors can begin to leak. More commonly, clogs can form from deposits left behind by evaporated fuel, or from carbon buildup in direct-injection applications. A fouled injector might not deliver the proper amount of fuel, or its spray pattern might be off. Those issues can lead to rough idling, hesitations, lost power, and poor fuel economy. Left unchecked, fouled injectors can even prevent a vehicle from running."   

I also see similar statements by mechanic commentaries, and other types of websites, blogs, etc. ... not just a company trying to sell their product. I guess my question would be is this rubbish, is there any validity to this statement, or do the injectors eventually start to foul and degrade... with or without using the injector cleaners? Again, that was the question I was asking myself as I ponder the possibility I might have a bad fuel injector ... which turned out not to be the case.

[cadillacmike68]

i recommend using a Toptier gas. Chevron is one, as is Shell, Mobil, etc. Look it up:  toptiergas.com 

[tmdeturck]

 That's an interesting question Jason.

I've never had a real occasion to replace injectors until my 2001 blazer.  On that 4.3 Vortec v6, the fuel poppets slowly got so gunked up (or leaking) that the truck became hard to start, and would often throw check engine codes right after starting.  I was running fuel injector cleaner (Techron) every other tank for a long time, and it wouldn't clear up the issue.  Only replacing the CSFI spider system- using the newer redesigned unit for 2002+ years - worked to solve the issue.  It really got its pep back then.  I've never had any other GM car have an injector failure while I've owned it, and I run my commuter cars for 300k.

I find though that just tracking your mpg routinely can be a good indicator to changes over time.  I keep a mileage book and record how much gas added, mileage, and grade of gas - and check the numbers every so often.  I suppose if you really wanted to get some data for comparison, a periodic dyno test would do it!

Terry

[Jason Edge]

I find though that just tracking your mpg routinely can be a good indicator to changes over time.  I keep a mileage book and record how much gas added, mileage, and grade of gas - and check the numbers every so often.  I suppose if you really wanted to get some data for comparison, a periodic dyno test would do it!
Terry

I've never really had a good idea of what my mpg is and believe the better the 403 hp 6.2L L92 in my 2013 EXT runs the worse gas mileage I will get because the more I'm going to put my foot in the pedal ... there are few things I can guarantee you all but that is a fact! I have always had a hot rod heart. Have I ever told you guys my first date with my wife was at the drag strip racing my 68 Camaro against a 69 Camaro... won the race, got the trophy, got the girl! Ha Ha. Moral to the story is the weight of my right foot on the pedal is proportional to the HP under the hood! LOL

With that said I was thinking of finding a local dyno to get some specs before and after future changes. It is too late to do that on what has already been done, but there are future upgrades, etc. for sure. My hot rod heart will always beat and guess that is why I started thinking and wondering how replacing the fuel injectors might affect performance, including smoothness, power and mpg. 

[James Landi]

Jason,
INDEED I laughed out loud!  "... because the more I'm going to put my foot in the pedal won the race, got the trophy, got the girl! Ha Ha. Moral to the story is the weight of my right foot on the pedal is proportional to the HP under the hood! LOL ther

And by the way, it was NEVER a matter of gas mileage or putting my foot on the gas... when I was in college in the mid 1960's, I drove a 1961 Cadillac convertible--- white with red  leather interior, and adjustable bench front seat...  NEVER suffered from lack of female attention at the small college I attended.   Happy day to you Jason,   James

[Jason Edge]

"And by the way, it was NEVER a matter of gas mileage or putting my foot on the gas... when I was in college in the mid 1960's, I drove a 1961 Cadillac convertible--- white with red  leather interior, and adjustable bench front seat...  NEVER suffered from lack of female attention at the small college I attended.   Happy day to you Jason,   James

James, I would have probably been better off with a cruiser Cadillac instead of that 68 Camaro that my dad gave me when I was 15 as I spent way too much time chasing the extra HP.  I grew up in a blue collar / military town (Fayetteville, NC next to Fort Bragg) and most of us young dudes were into hot rodding our cars. On Nov 13, 1996 that all changed when I bought my 1964 Coupe de Ville 'Dino'.  I would of course do gradual upgrades including Pertronix, modified intake, Edelbrock 750, and that optional controlled (posi) differential, but pop the hood and it all looks pretty stock. I remember the day I had the posi rear end installed and just had to take it over behind an office building across the street from me, hold the brakes and do a 2 wheel burnout! I don't think I have done it since but it sure felt good!

Just to add to the story I took the 2013 EXT out last night after replacing all 8 ignition coils and I tell you that vehicle has more power!  My new "Like New" perception has advanced from what it was a few days ago! Again, I think the idea that our cars still run like new is a deception that father time plays on us.