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1991 Seville starting

Started by Barry M Wheeler #2189, December 14, 2021, 03:29:15 PM

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Barry M Wheeler #2189

What would make a 1991 Seville give a "snap," click, or "thunk" when starting (usually the first time in the morning?) and not engage the starter.
It has a 2-3 month old starter. It was in the shop today and the starter, alternator, battery were all checked out and tested good. They also checked the wiring carefully. Even while waiting to get the car in the shop, it has "caught" the second or third time and started right up. ???

When I started it this morning, it caught the first time and I didn't drive it yesterday. Temp was 32 degrees F this AM.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

TJ Hopland

That symptom is usually the bendix gear in the starter popping out and happening to hit a tooth in the ring gear straight on.  If everything is working correctly the starter motor starts turning and the teeth align and fully engage and the engine starts.     

Question is why isn't the starter turning when this happens?   In most starter designs the solenoid that engages the gear also has the electrical contacts on it that spins the starter.   If it hits a tooth it can't fully engage so the electrical contact also barely makes contact so sometimes not enough juice makes it to spin the stater.   Repeated attempts will usually finally rattle things enough that the teeth engage and you get full movement and full spring pressure on the contacts and it works. 

A weak starter motor can also cause the issue as well as battery and cable issues.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Ran into a similar problem recently. Battery terminals needed to be tightened.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

The Tassie Devil(le)

I thought that the Starter Armature wasn't supposed to begin rotating until the teeth of the Bendix were engaged with the Ring Gear.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

I think that is the hope and why the teeth on the starter are pointed a bit but I know in many cases there is enough electrical contact when the side of the teeth hit that it will start to turn.  I'm not sure if that was by design in that the contact plate doesn't make good contact till its fully engaged?   Or if that just happens to be the way it ends up working out.    Seems like a lot would have to be manufactured and installed correctly for that to actually be part of the design.

Also look at other brands of starters where the electrical contact part is a separate remotely mounted part like a classic Ford.   I think they quit doing that in the 1980's, was there a reason for that?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Barry M Wheeler #2189

The car was returned to me yesterday with "no charge for services" as they couldn't find anything wrong. They checked the wiring, cables, starter, armature and battery . Then, when we took the car to town this afternoon, I was on the highway running about 60 MPH and the engine stopped.

I pulled off on the apron and tried to start it again and got no fire. So I pulled out my I phone to call AAA. And of course Siri was not active out in the boonies, so I was just about ready to undo the seat belt to get out my wallet for the ID card and phone #. I thought I'd try it once more, and it started right up.

I was right at an intersection to get off the highway to county roads and decided to continue on into town. No problems in traffic the rest of the afternoon and on the way home. I used county roads back all the way. When we got back home, I stopped at the shop and told them my tale of woe. They double checked the battery cables which were tight.

They told me to keep track of any further problems. One thing, I was down to 2-3 gallons of gas which I'd filled up prior to leaving town. ??? Thanks for the thoughts and help.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

TJ Hopland

So when the engine stopped was everything else seeming like it was working?   I assume dash was all lit up with check engine, oil, battery, and pretty much every light and ding just like when you first turn the key on to start the car?    Lighting was still normal?   Radio still playing?   Basically wondering if it could be a major power issue?

When you were cranking it sounded and the dash looked normal just no signs of fire?   Then you turned the key off and messed with your phone and such?  How long were you doing that before you tried again?   When you tried was it a totally normal start sound and time wise?  And when it did start it was nice and smooth and normal or was it a little rough or did the idle flare up and take a second to come down?

And when you mention being down on gas I assume you mean this has a digital gauge that reads in gallons.  Before this trip you filled it up till the pump shut off so it read F and then normal is F-19-18-17-16 sort of thing?  And normally this trip would not make a noticeable dent in the fuel gauge especially from F?    Anytime there is gas missing other than looking for leaks I would be checking the engine oil level to make sure its not overfull and sniffing it for signs of gas.  Doesn't seem connected at this point but you don't want to burn up the engine while chasing an electrical issue. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Hi TJ,

When I hit the starter after getting stopped, it was just like a carb engine "not starting." When it did start it ran normally the rest of the day.

One thing, I "think" (as I was doing several things at once...steering a dead car...watching for other traffic (luckily none)), that the orange light came on to check the info panel, but it "didn't." But, by that time, I was losing RPMs, so might not have had alternator juice to light it up.

Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Went to the store this AM and found a message that my A/C is leaking again. Right after I spent $600 for a new evaporator. Of course it's under warranty, but it is kind of annoying.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

V63

#9
As suggested above,  remove clean and verify the battery connections as most probable issue. Those versions have stacked cables on the positive side.

James Landi

Hi Barry,

I'm thinking that the starter issue is a mechanical "engagement" issue as other members mentioned above.  Regarding your car "crapping out while driving," you likely have a ghost in your machine-- I encountered two such experiences with my late model 1980's Cadillacs many years ago.  Resolved at the Cadillac service department --- they determined that I needed new ecm's  ("Mr. Landi, they are computers and they don't last forever.")  I am clueless as to how the service department diagnosed the problem... I'm assuming they have those "diagnositic decision trees" that check functioning.  As you likely know, these Cadillacs had their on-board diagnostic readouts on the digital readout on your car.  In the 80's, one had to press a couple of a/c function buttons to pull up the diagnositic functions and then  another button was used to toggle through the codes... the codes for your ecm readout are likely in google.  YOu might also have a failing fuel pump--- but I advise that you look into the functioning of your ecm by using the on-board diagnositics...hope this helps you,  James