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De-carbonization on Northstar

Started by Joe Bisbee, March 21, 2005, 04:16:02 PM

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David #19063

Chip,

Please let us know what you learn.

It shouldnt hurt to have them do the decarb, but it will be interesting to see if the fuel & cleaner clears it up.  Although, it took a while for the problem to get to this point, it may take several tankfulls of premium to improve.

David

Bret Scott (CLC 21765)

Hi, Chip-

Hmmm... its quite possible that there is a more recent technical bullitin than the one I located, but in either case, you can ask your dealer to pull up any bullitins dealing with carbon build-up, to confirm the time that the fluid is supposed to remain in the engine.  In the one I spotted, it cautions against leaving the chemical in the engine for more than a few hours, as this may cause the carbon material to settle back in to the ring grooves.

Regards,

Bret

Chip Hodges, CLC #20536

Just wanted to update everyone on the de-carbonization of my 2001 Deville.  

I took the car in last Tuesday morning, the 29th, for the de-carb procedure.  I had been told the preceding week that the car would not be ready until the following day, but to my surprise, I received a call that afternoon informing me that the car was ready to go.  

I drove the car home, and let it idle in my driveway so that I could determine if the knocking noises had abated.  The knock was still present, and there was absolutely no improvement.  I notified the dealership the following day of the situation, and was told to bring the car in this morning for them to take another look at it.

When I arrived this morning, I was taken aside by the service manager, a service technician and someone on the sales side of the dealership, and given an explanation as to what they believe is the cause and remedy for the problem.  It seems that they had hoped that doing the de-carbonization procedure on the car would take care of the problem, which it did not.  According to them, General Motors has issued a service bulletin to its Cadillac dealerships stating that carbon buildup in the Northstar engine can be so severe that over time it can lower the tolerances between the pistons and the cylinder wall, and this is what they believe has happened to the engine in my car.  The solution prescribed by Cadillac is to replace the pistons with pistons that have a Kevlar coating.

The car is back at the dealership while they evaluate the situation, and may be there for the rest of the week while the pistons are being replaced.

My Deville is only a little more than 1,700 miles from being out of warranty.  This is the first car that I have purchased in my adult life for which I have not purchased an extended warranty, due to the fact that I have never had to have repair work done under an extended warranty.  I am sure glad that I am sensitive to any strange noises my car might be making, no matter how subtle they might be, and was able to have this problem addressed before the car was out of warranty.

What really bugs me about this whole thing is that it was made perfectly clear to me today that this is a widespread problem with the Northstar engine that can become a major issue, and GM and Cadillac are very much aware of it.

I love both of my 1962 Cadillacs, and have really wanted to have a reason to love the newer Cadillacs, but issues like this may cause me switch to one of the Japanese automobile manufacturers for my daily driver.

Chip

David #19063

Hello Chris,

Sorry, I could resist the "Lost in Space" reference...LOL!

I am sorry to hear that your problem is worse.

If I were you, I would be fast checking out the $0 Deductable GMAC Bumper to Bumper Warranty.

Now, I am a little cynical...sometimes a lot cynical.  But if I were you, I also would be calling the Cadillac 800 number and be asking for supervisiors and supervisors supervisors regarding this.

Personally it is my opinion that sophisticated engines like the Northstar just cannot be rebuilt right.  I might be wrong, but if there is this much problems, I would not settle to have them rebuild it, replace the pistons, etc.

I would require a "new" crate complete Northstar engine for replacement.  

I am sorry, but IMHO, your engine will never be the same or operate right, for the long term, if you let them open it up.  You will be displeased down the road.  In fact, you will regret it.

Talk to the Cadillac people on the 800 number and get satisfaction there...and an engine.  I mean, you paid near $50,000 for the car, if it has an engine problem, then they can put in a new engine free.

I am suspicious of some of the work dealerships do under warranty.  I am not saying that in this case they are being dishonest, but I am not saying they are not either.

Several years ago, when our 96 Concours was still under the factory warranty but not much left, we had the oil changed there and when my wife picked it up, she smelled burning oil when she got home (eg. they spilled it when they put the oil in.)  So she called them and they said to bring the car in the next day.  So she did.  They gave her a loaner Cadillac and said they would fix the problem.  They called later to say that the engine needed the block oil seal replaced, a 16 hour job as there was a service bulliten on it and our oil seal showed signs of weaping oil.  Well, she told them that the car never dripped a drop of oil on our garage floor and that we felt they spilled the oil during the oil change.  They basically said that since the car was under warranty, this would be free, but if we waited until the warranty ran out and it got worse, we would have to pay the full cost.  So we had them do it to be safe.  Since they did their repair, the car started occasionally leaving a few drops of oil on the floor and has ever since.

But the dealer got to do this big job and got charge it to Cadillac.  I think stuff like this happens a lot more than we think.  Sometimes the customer benefits, but sometimes they do not.

Like a said, tell them to keep your engine and you want a brand new one...under warranty.

Do not take no for an answer.

Also, if you cannoot get them to agree to this, buy the GMAC Warranty only...but it will probably be $2500 or so.  But if you keep the car until 85,000-100,000, it will save you money.

Like I said, this is just my feelings, but you have to protect yourself.  The dealer protects its bottom line...so should you.

Also, others may say I am off base on this, they can and I will not be offended, but nobody will stick up for you like you can.

David










JIM CLC # 15000

04-04-05
Chip, I agree with David, insist on a new engine.
If you have to make over-tures about sueing, it just may get their attention.
I have a Nephew that refused to accept a "factory" rebuilt engine and took Chrysler to arbertration (sic) and won.
Judge made the dealer give him all of the money that he had to spend for tax, license registering, he was one-more happy camper. (his origional problem was "low" oil pressure)
Good Luck, hold-out for a new engine, Jim

Chip Hodges, CLC #20536

David and Jim,

I absolutely agree with your opinions regarding replacement of the engine.  I did a little research last night, and found a report which also states thate these engines are not really intended to be opened up for a major overhaul, and that the best solution is replacement of the engine.

David, I share your cynicism in regards to dealer service departments and unnecessary work done by them.

A very good friend of ours is a service manager for a new car dealership, and I have heard horror stories from him regarding unnecessary work done on customers vehicles that were under warranty so that the service department could meet their monthly revenue quota.  He even said that some of the less honest dealer service departments will sabotage customer vehicles while they are in for even routine servicing in order to keep them coming back.  More than 10 years ago he refused to accept a position in the service department of a Cadillac dealership when he was told that he would have to generate a minimum of $100,000.00 in revenue monthly from customer vehicles (I am sure that number would be much higher today).  He knew that the only way he could meet this quota would be to perform unnessary repairs, or to have the service technicians create problems on customer vehicles while they were in for other work.

I suppose I will be back on the phone today with the dealer, GM, or Cadillac to demand an engine replacement.  What a hassle!

Yes, I have already spoken to my attorney about this early on to obtain his recommendation as to how I should proceed with this.  I almost played the lawsuit card yesterday, but I am waiting for just the right moment.  I have a feeling that moment will be coming very soon.

Chip

Rhino 21150

At one point I had thought of putting a Northstar in my La Salle but after reading all this about that engine I have canned the idea. I was never too serious, but if I ever revisit this concept it will be a 472/500. Dont go trying to sell me one of these engines! It is a long way off in the future. As for the 322 thats in it, I would rebuild it and put it in the yard building. For the guy who buys it from my estate!

Michael Stamps 19507

IMHO the 472/500 line were the last of the real Cadillac engines so I agree with you.  I wont try and sell you one but I do have a spare 73 472 that Ill give you if you want.

Stampie

Chris Short CLC 18814

Hello,
    Ive got a 96 Eldorado with the Northstar.  Ive had for about 5 years.  Its just now got 100,000 on it.  Ive never really liked this car..  The engine now recently has started to make a new noise..  Its a deep thud kinda sound..  But I just keep driveing it.  Sometimes the noise is there, sometimes not.  Every 6 months Ive had to do something major to it..  Its either been a alternator, or speed sensors.  Ive always kept mobile 1 in it.  Change the oil every 2 thousand never to go over.  It uses about a quart of oil every 800 miles.  So including the oil change I go through about 10-11 quarts of Mobile 1 oil every 2,000 miles! But yet it doesnt seem to smoke so who knows where its going!  My 68 DeVille convertable uses not quite a quart every 2 thousand.  Its just a amazing engine. And car!  But those days are gone..  I wish cadillac would stop makeing "throw away" cars.  There good for a 100K and thats about it.

Chris Short

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Chris,

Nobody is going to stop making "Throw-away Cars".   If they did, then the cars woyld last too long and nobody would buy new ones.

This is especially true these days as most all cars look the same, so there is really no need to replace an older car with a new car because the new car looks more flashier.

The cars of the 00s to the 40s didnt last that long because of the poor condition of the roads.   Those cars were reasonably built.

The days of the 50s to the 70s, where cars changed so fast, will never come back.   Those cars were well built, but Theie design was planned to make each newer one obsolete, as the newer one looked better and had more chrome.

The cars of today, with all their lightweight materials and electronics, just wont last, and the factories just love that.   Once the Warranty period has expired, so will the car, most likely.   That is why the warranties are so good now.   The makers know their product will last that long, just.   Some will last longer, but the majority wont.

That is my take on the matter.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

Doug Sprinthall

Respectfully, I must disagree with almost everything you said.   As the owner of a 68 convert I share your love of Cads.
As someone who has made his living for over 20 years selling cars (I am the gm of a dodge store currently) I disagree as to your perception of the quality of new cars.  In all areas but one I really think new cars are far better.  Acceleration, cornering, braking, saftey, creature comforts, body integrity,
paint, audio systems, maintanance intervals are all vastly superior now.  Its really not even close.

Where the old car shines of course is in soul.  These modern plastic coated look-a-likes are for the most part quite dull and do little to stir the heart.  In terms of smiles per gallon Id rather drive cross county in a 49 cad as opposed to a 05 Deville.  However if my life depended on getting there quickly Id take the 05 every time.

When I started selling cars 100k was a hallmark.  It was unusual to see 100k cars that you wouldnt want to haul to the trash compactor.  With the rare exceptional customer that was a maintnance fanatic, they just wouldnt cut it.  As a Minnesota resident one of the big problems was body rot.

Doug Sprinthall

Ooops, hit the post button by mistake.

Anyway on to warranties.  Manufacturers dont design cars to wear out when the warranties expire.  They offer longer and longer warranties for two reasons.  Selling cars is extremely competitive and it gives manufacturers an edge.  Also because cars are getting better all the time they can afford to stand behind their cars longer.



The biggest threat to GM isnt car quality (although admittedly there is always room for improvement) but health care.  In 2006 this will be a 6 billion dollar expense.  This starts GM 1500 per copy in the whole behind their foreign competitiors. Its sad that by taking care of this huge active and retired labor force that GM is sitting on a time bomb that could destroy the company.  Ford is sitting on a similar problem.  In the extremely competitive world of car building, where engineers try to save 1 dollar per car in design changes, 1500 will kill you in terms of lost funds for R&D etc.


I wouldnt be doing my job without ending with a car pitch.  check out the Magnum srt-8 coming out this summer.  430 hp, rear wheel drive station wagon.  Not for the faint of heart.  Its not a 58 nomad but its got more soul than a Camry!!

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Doug,

I am glad that someone of your experience disagrees with most of what I said, but, as I can relate from being involved with cars over the past 40 years, I can only relate from experience.   My last 30 years were involved in purchasing millions of dollars worth of new vehicles every year for my employer, and as the years went by, a new car, was just that, a new car, no excitement, and, it got to the stage that in the garage, it was hard to tell the difference between a Ford or a GM.   But, we had very few warranty problems with them either.   When they sold, the buyers, when they came back years later to buy another, always said that the previous car never gave them any trouble.

I always used to look forward to looking into the showrooms, and the magazine advertisements of the latest offerings, but over the last twenty years, I have been less and less bothered to give but a glancing look.   These days, since the Computers started designing car shapes, they have all become very similar in shape and look.

Not that long ago I remember seeing a line of cars in the distance, and the only car that had any sun glinting off the bodywork was a 68 Pontiac.   All the others just blended together, and by the time they passed me, it was still hard to recall what they were.  The Poncho took all the limelight.

Granted, the later cars are far better. Acceleration, cornering, braking, saftey, creature comforts, body integrity,
paint, audio systems, maintanance intervals are all vastly superior now. Its really not even close.

As you said "Where the old car shines of course is in soul".   Yes, I totally agree there. However if my life depended on survival, then the latest car with the latest safety gear is the only way to crash.   Oh, and yes, the fuel economy is best in a new car as well.

I am sure that the Manufacturers only give the extended warranties to sell the cars.   If I remember correctly, Lincoln was the first to offer 5 years or 50,000 miles.   Yes, cars are getting better due to the enginering and manufacturing processes, but it is the better quality roads and lubricants that lengthen the life of a vehicle as well.   Plus, a lot of manufacturers are using components from the same suppliers, so quality has to be good, or the supplier gets sued by the vehicle builder.

I apologise for my ignorance on the US Health system, as we have nothing like that over here in Australia, and I hope we never do.   Here, each employee carries their own health insurance, or they go to public hospitals.

By the way, those Camrys are a very good car, and hold their price extremely well.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

PaulVW

I also have a 68 DeVille, as well as a 98 DeVille, (and an 02 Escalade, but I dont really consider that to be a Cadillac.) I still love my 98 DeVille.  Never had a speck of trouble with it in 120,000 miles.  It still looks like new (tho its been hit and repaired about a half dozen times).  It still rides like new, and is very nimble for its size- it feels like you are driving a much smaller car.  The Northstar gives it great accelleration, sounds good, and runs very smooth. With the computerized engine controls, it starts, idles smooth adn drives away instantly in all kinds of weather- a far cry from the carbureted 68.  The ride and handling are, of course, far nicer than the 68.  The quality of the interior is much nicer than the 68.  Nothing "throw-away" about it, and I plan to keep it for at least several more years.  It does use about a quart every 3000 miles, but I can live with that.

JIM CLC # 15000

04-08-05
Chris, the Alternator is good for about 90K, not surprising that you had to replace it. Speed Sensor, dont know the expected life on those, never had to replace one.
The knock you have, sounds like "carbon" build up in/on the piston top. (could be where the oil is going).
I feel you should extend the oil change intervals to 3K +-, it will save you at approxly 1/3 on cost. I think the fac. recomends 5 or 6k between changes. Always change the filter with each oil change.
Good Luck, Jim

Chris Short CLC 18814

Hello Doug,
     I still dont think the newer cadillacs are truely that good.  In my collection of Cadillacs I also have a 85 Eldorado.  My 85s seats are more comfortable for on a trip, its more roomy, I think has way more class when it comes to styling, and it handles better I think.  Alot of people dont beleive me when I say a 85 eldorado handles better than a 96 eldo.  First of all the 96 steers harder through a corner. And on bumpy roads my 85 holds the road way better.  On corners it feels like I sit lower to the ground in the 85 so it huggs it better.  On the 96 it kinda skips around the road. Like the back end will skip around on bumps.  It almost fish tails.  And its always done this.  Where the 85 just sits there.  Im not sure what the weight differnce of the cars is but that might have a big part of it.  But the northstar beats the 4.1 on power, ok theres just no comparison there the northstar has it beat like night and day...  And the 96 does have a killer sound system.  And heated seats.  Like I want to trade off the 96 and get a year old STS or DTS but Im fustrated with the whole issue and am probly going to get a either BMW or a Mazda.

  But Doug I think you put it best:

" These modern plastic coated look-a-likes are for the most part quite dull and do little to stir the heart."

Chris Short

Rhino 21150

Bless you my son! NO SPACE! Heard that lament before? There is a fellow on the ClassicCadillacChat group at Yahoo that needs an engine, I believe a 472. Sounds like he threw a rod, or the cap came off one rod. classiccadillacchat@yahoogroups.com Offer the engine there, someone needs it!

Chip Hodges, CLC #20536

You are right Jim, it probably is carbon deposits, and as you know, I have had some experience with that subject lately.

My carbon problem appears to have been taken care of after everyone decided on the less invasive method of performing a total de-carbonization procedure four times over the past week as a last ditch effort.  I picked-up the car from the dealer Friday morning, drove it to work, drove it quite a bit yesterday, and there are no strange noises, including knocking, coming from the engine.  The engine now sounds and performs pretty much as it did the day that I purchased the car.

Now that I am less upset and emotional about this whole experience, I have reflected back on the four years, and nearly 50,000 miles I have had my DeVille, and have realized that during that time, the only problem I have had with the car other than carbon deposits, has been a single blown fuse.  I have to admit that is a pretty good track record.  

I must be honest and admit that the new Cadillacs really are a vast improvement over our beloved older Cadillacs.  They are powerful, relatively economical, hold the road like glue, and are dependable, but they still do not stir that something in my soul the way my tailfinned Cadillacs do.

Chip

JIM CLC # 15000

044-10-05
Chip, glad to hear that you have the knocking problem solved.
One thing you might want to consider to prevent re- occurence is to use a difference brand of gas.
Who know what goes into gasoline today.
I remenber that a lot of people had problems with their new 1958 Pord V8s. It was bad!
One machanic I knew got to where he would ask the owner, what brand gas do you use, if it was an "off breed" brand, he would tell the owner to "change brands and the problems will go away after about two tanks", and it did.
Good Luck, Jim
P.S. Higher priced gasoline is not necessarly better.
Some of the "cut-rate" brands use (sale) the good stuff.

David #19063

Hello Chip,

So, is it all better now?  

What all did they do?

Are you going to run premium only now?

Can ou tell any performance difference now using premium?

David