Buick or Pontiac may be next to go.

[Rob Gerace #16100]

Heres and Autoweek article about GMs possible plan to phase out another brand.  Theres nothing definite yet, but Mr. Lutz said that it is a possibility if sales keep declining.  Heres the link:

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102049 TARGET=_blank>http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102049


Rob
66 SDV
03 Not GM car  (I wont support such an organization)

[Porter 21919]

Rob,

"03 Not GM car (I wont support such an organization) "

You lost me on that one. I will never drive any car that is not GM, Cadillac or a Chevy truck is all I will drive. Without our support there will be no more American cars. Through my ignorance I once owned two Ford Vans, never a foreign corporation vehicle.

The new GM cars are state of the art and durable, the Roger B. Smith days of pain have been dealt with after 20 years.

Porter

[Rob Gerace #16100]

Porter,
  Dont get me wrong, Im an American just like everyone else born/naturalized here, but I just cant justify supporting a company where CEOs and other executives(current and retired) get paid outrageously high amounts of money while the people doing the real work get crap.  And when their companies do poorly, the execs still get big bonuses, and cut peoples jobs to make the stock prices look better.  

   Im an engineer by education, BS and MS in mechanical engineering, and Im pretty appalled at how little say engineers get in American companies.  Asian companies, on the other hand, are engineering-driven, and dont overpay their non-productive employees such high amounts.

Also, nowadays, chances are when you buy an Japanese car, youre more likely to support an American worker.  Whereas, with most American cars(and more so in the future), youll be supporting a Mexican(or other nation) worker, while padding the pockets of already rich executives.  

On the personal issue of buying a car:  As a consumer, it is your duty to yourself to buy the best car you can for the money.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinions about cars, so I dont advocate that a certain brand is best for everyone.  

But, the main thing that I dont agree with is BRAND LOYALTY.  Brand loyalty is what allows companies to produce the crappiest product out there, and people will still buy it.  A brand loyalist already "knows" which car is best, before they even see it, or hear any reviews on it.  A brand loyalist is someone who doesnt like Consumer Reports(or any other similar publication), because it doesnt say what the brand loyalist wants to hear about their favorite brand.  I feel that brand loyalty is communistic and doesnt allow for open-mindedness and unbiased desicion-making.

So, what Im saying, is that if GM makes the car thats right for you at the right price, than thats the car you should drive.  If GM doesnt make the right car for you, that doesnt meant that you still have to buy one from them anyway.  In that case, you should move on to someone who does produce what youre looking for.  And even then, dont stay with them if they dont continue to satisfy them.  

Anyway, sorry to take up too much space on here.  Im on the board because I own a 66 SDV, and I enjoy it very much.  I just hate to hear such American car nazi-ism in our free country.  

Rob

P.s.  Porter, Im not trying to disrespect you on this one, but Im just saying what I think of this topic.  Im not going to put you down for buying what you buy, but just as long as you do whats best for you.

[Porter 21919]

Rob,

No need to justify your opinion, it is all well and good. I have recently quoted John Z. Delorean here about his opinion that GM needs more engineers, not bean counters. That was what put Pontiac sales over the top in 1965 and gave them Motor Trend Car of the Year Award, the best product. Just so happens he was in charge of engineering at Pontiac at the time so he can speak with authority.

I think GM has the talent to engineer and build the best cars in the world, the mentality in the 70s was bad, the 80s was a transition period, the 90s was a recovery period. Hopefully we can recover from here but it will not be easy, much damage has been done to the reputation of our once world class GM cars.

It will not be easy to right the ship, I expect Toyota will overtake GM in sales globally, the General will need to get back to basics and build the best cars once again in order to just survive and rebuild or at least maintain what market share they have.

Brand loyalty is important for any manufacturer, GM lived off it for many years, deservedly so, now the Asian auto manufacturers are.

Porter

[Doug Houston]

I received a copy of a message from a week ago or so about GMs plight, and its more grave than most might think. And while Im not a stockholder, I feel worry.

Its like all of the stuff you hear about THE REASON why Packard went under. There were lots of things that did Packard in; not just one and there are lots (more) things that have been dragging GM down. This article last week that pretty well summed up what many of us have said for years. Corporations fail because they are managed out of existence. There has to be a balance between fiscal and product policies. In the early years, the president was a product-oriented guy, and the CEO was the financial watcher. In 1961, this changed, and the new pres. was a financial type, as well as the CEO from the same place. Not much changed immediately, but the policies of the company drifted to standardization.... in everything. Remember the Chevrolet engines in Oldsmobiles flap when a customer found out he had a Chevy with an Olds nameplate?

 As time wore on, there were many dumb things that were done by the bean counters, that drove away customers. One was Chevys Vega, with an engine that the company had to have a production rebuild operation. There was the dinky Chevy that was offered as a Cadillac,and that fooled nobody,and badly tarnished Cadillacs name. The diesel-ization of the Olds 350 engine with its catastrophic failures. The big flap about Chevrolet engine mounts in the mid 70s(?).

There were more disasters of course. The Roger Smith acts are still with us. The corporation didnt need another car division, but Smith needed a legacy for himself. Because of it, a division had to go, and it was Oldsmobile, though Pontiac and Buick had been possible targets. Saturn lives on, though. Sure, Saturn wasnt spoken of as a GM division, but a division by any other name is still a division. I ask even today: Just where in the GM product line does Saturn fit? Is it between Chevy and Pontiac; or Pontiac and Buick...where?  Oldsmobile had its place and status in the minds of buyers, but Saturn has no image at all.

 Somewhere in the mid-eighties, Robert Stempel, a product-oriented guy was installed as president and in a flash, he was replaced by another bean counter. Bookkeepers have no ability to foresee; no idea of what a customer might want, nor do they care. They plan something that is to be sold and make return on investment. They stopped making American cars for American buyers. Because Japanese cars are appealing to so many, all we now have to choose from  is Japanese jellybeans on wheels passed off  as American products. There isnt a passenger car (sedan) made today in the USA  that I have a desire for. The reason that SUVs are so popular is that there is at least room inside them for a family. Not so comfortably in most sedans. Many of them actually resemble (american) cars. Chryslers funny little PC Cruiser made a big hit in the salesroom because it looks more like an automobile to the americans eye than the  oriental-inspired offerings. Cant you see a Chevy sedan-Delivery in the rear view?

In the formative days, it was the policy of GM styling (Harley Earl) to have the car recognizable from half a block away.It was known as "road value" Today, you can follow ANYBODYS car and not know (or care) what it is. If the name is on the car, its subdued so as not to be read! Are the car makers ashamed of their product? I wouldnt be surprised.  


None of us want to see  something like the end of GM. The radio giant RCA is long gone, as well as many other grand old companies. Someone said that it takes a lot of killing to cause  the death of something as big as this corporation, but the bean counters have been knocking the props out from under it for a long time. Can this be reversed? I hope so. But it will take a real "messiah" to get in and pick out the cancerous bodies that have emaciated the company to its present state, and start putting some products in the showrooms that will excite the buyers, and make them want what they see. It happened to Chrysler a few years ago, and the company was rescued, Now, its GMs turn.

The key is product awareness. I can still remember going to the dealers showrooms, and peering through the papered windows to see the new models. It was sort of a thrilling experience to get a look at the new cars, and how different and nicer they would be.  In 1990, I was involved in the photographing of the upcoming 1991 Oldsmobile at various sites in my vicinity. My 41 Olds was photographed with the new 91 models. As we drove along the highway from one site to another that day, nobody even noticed that they were looking at next years model! Not enough had changed to make any difference.

Can the patient be recovered? Its a mighty big order. At this time, there doesnt appear to be much potential for a job of that magnitude. Obviously, those in charge are not affecting a cure.
Well need to see more than optimistic news releases!

[Rob Gerace #16100]

Hi Porter,
   Youre right in that companies rely on brand loyalty to survive.  But at the same time, it is not our job to support companies.  It is our job as a consumer to buy whats right for us.  A company that doesnt produce a good product, doesnt deserve loyalty in my mind.  

I can imagine how the owner of a 79 Cadillac felt when he traded it in on a new 82 model.  Or how the 267,900 buyers of 71 Chevy Vegas felt when they realized that this car wasnt anywhere near the quality of the previous GM car they owned.  In those cases, Im sure the customer would question why they would want to buy another GM car.  

GMs quality isnt as bad as the Vegas were, that may be an extreme example.  But one modern example would be GMs 3.1 and 3.4 liter V-6s.  They put those engines in a lot of cars, and most of them develop intake manifold gasket leaks, which will cause coolant to go into the oil and fry the bearings.  We get a lot of those in at my shop.  Some customers even cry when they find out that the routine oil change they originally came in for, only lets them find out that they have a mandatory $700+ repair in the near future.  

Chronic quality problems like that will cause customers to lose their loyalty and switch brands.  You cant fault them for that.  

The problem GM has is that now a lot of people dont view them as a quality carmaker anymore.  And now, even if they made the best cars out there starting tomorrow, it would still take a good 10 years or so for their reputation to turn around.  My guess is that I will see the demise of GM in my lifetime(Im only 28), unless they act fast.  I hate to say it, but thats the direction its going.

Rob
66 SDV

[Steve Crum 20999]

No surprises here! I havent seen a new GM of any breed on the road in the past 2 years with the exception of maybe the XLR, that I would waste any time stopping at a dealer lot to look at.
Car or truck! Theyre all ugly.

[Porter 21919]

GM seems to do well with the Corvette. I searched for reviews on the new Cobalt and they were favorable. What about the new Buick Lacrosse ? I heard that was well received.

Since not many here care for the new GM styling what foreign brands look so great ? The first time I saw the rear end of the new Nissan Z car I thought it was ugly as can be. My aunt has a loaded 2002 Honda Accord Ex, she hates the new styling, even the interior. An Acura is just a gussied up overpriced Honda ,still great cars.

Without having test driven a car I will reserve judgment, the few here that have commented about their CTS or CTS-V were very pleased, likewise the new STS owners.

Styling opinions are objective, if the GM drivetrains and build quality are good I will be satisfied.

I think many of us here believe that GM has too much product overlap, not enough market share to carry the older divisional structure.

Lets not forget how GM started, many car brands were added or deleted from the inception. The Corvette and Cadillac are still the flagships. Sometimes smaller is better, the small niche market car manufacturers are doing well, they concentrate on their limited products and excel. The Koreans are nipping at everyones heels these days, I think they will be building plants here soon.

I read years ago the 0 percent financing was going to come back and bite GM in the butt.

[David #19063]

I saw the Lacrosse at a Buick Dealer recently.  There are two V6 engine options.  The range from about $23,000 to fully loaded at $35,000.

The initial reports on the Lacrosse are very good.  Buick also has a new larger car coming out to replace the Park Avenue/Ultra.

However, at $35,000 I could also buy a fully loaded 2WD 5.7L Hemi Magnum or 300C.  

It would take me about 0.3 microseconds to debate this choice.

David

[Porter 21919]

I read they have a lot of problems with the Durangos, Chryslers Dodge trucks dont have the greatest quality ratings.

Again, test driving and product analysis is required.

Im not taking anything away from them, they have some sharp products and they take the risk with new innovations.

Any consumer would be foolish to not look at all the suitable products and choose what is best for them, whatever their criteria is. Styling, performance, interior comfort, function, value, etc.

The bottom line is still profits for the manufacturer.

[Rusty Shepherd CLC 6397]

Since I recently discovered Im not the only one with this opinion, I can now say that I cant stand the looks of the new Chrysler 300; it looks to me like a block of steel that they havent finished chiseling yet. I personally like the looks of the LaCrosse (as well as the Ford 500 and Mercury Montego which have been almost universally panned as bland); just proves no design can please everyone and apparently the Chrysler pleases most. If I could get by the styling, Id hate the rough, stiff ride of the most desirable model, the Hemi 300C. If you buy the C, you automatically get the stiffest suspension of the three 300 models. If a car gives a rough ride that I have to live with day after day and mile after mile, nothing else it offers would overcome this deficit.

[Porter 21919]

Rusty,

All this talk about go fast and performance. Ford created the original,affordable,dependable car and sold millions, perhaps that is what the new 500 is. They even responded to the performance critics that compare the car to the Chrysler magnum engine powered product and claim the Ford gets great gas mileage in contrast. Maybe it is the right car for the times, especially with permanent higher gasoline price. Not that I advocate an HT 4100 powered slug that cant get out of its own way. That was how we always described a Ford within my circle of friends, back in the days of GM high performance cars with decent gas mileage.

Many of the new cars make little sense to me, poor rear visiblity being the main culprit (small rear windows). Years ago my shop foreman commented all new cars look like a Ford Taurus, slope front and high rear deck for visibility and aerodynamics. Ford took the risk and hit a home run, the revised model with the oval rear window was a disaster.

GM apparently refuses to take their excellent engineers and step out in front of the pack and lead. They build great trendsetting showcars and whimp out when it is time for the rubber to meet the road.

Fins aside, I look at a 61 bubble top GM car as having great visiblity, quality and function.

Seems like some of us are at a loss these days for how and why they design and engineer the cars they manufacture.

My personal opinion is that there are too many players and the focus is on styling, bells and whistles. What does everyone complain about ? Product failure and excessive repair costs.

Porter, just rambling with my 2 cents for the day