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1960 Brakes

Started by Geoff Newcombe CLC #4719, April 16, 2005, 03:54:37 PM

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Geoff Newcombe CLC #4719

Two questions please:
#1.  My recently purchased 1960 series 62 Coupe has a very bad vibration when the brakes are applied above 35 MPH or so, the faster Im going, the worse the vibration when the brakes are applied.  The whole car shudders terribly, the steering wheel does not shimmy or only slightly.  I have gone through the brakes completely, plus rear drums are new, front drums turned.  Had the problem before working on the brakes and still do, little or no change.  Could this be a drive train problem, or am I missing something with the brakes?
#2.  I would like to put new drums on the front, Kanter advertises them but they are not in stock and they dont know when they will be.  There is an auction on ebay for new drums that the seller says are correct for 54 to 59 rears and 60 fronts, could someone please verify that for me before I bid on them.  I have the 59 and 60 Shop Manuals but not the parts book.  
Thanks very much for any help you can give.  
Geoff Newcombe

Porter 21919

Geoff,

Im not a 60 expert but off hand I dont think your brakes are the problem, my experience has been when you need front end work and you hit the brakes you will get symptoms like you have described. (ball joints, etc.)

Some of the 60 guys have had vibration problems but it was upon acceleration or under speed, not when applying the brakes. They had driveline/driveshaft problems, even maybe wheel balance problems.

HTH, the 60s guys will weigh in here eventually.

Porter
 

Jeff

For what its worth, my 61 lincoln (similar weight) had an identical vibration. Turned out to be bad ball joints. Go figure.

George

Geoff, the clue is in the fact that the steering wheel does not vibrate. Any problem with front end shimmy must surely transmit to the steering wheel, whether it be brakes or suspension components. When you apply brakes,the drums, ball joints, springs and tyres are affected. If you have had the brake drums checked and the problem is still with you then check the other components. If the vibration does not have much effect on the steering wheel, logic would be to look at the rear of the car. Change the tyres around,you would be surprised at the difference tyres can make. See if the vibration has any change of position ie front to rear. Check the rear springs, and the control link brackets. and the rear shoes, especially the hold down springs.

Rob Gerace #16100

The steering wheel wont always vibrate with front end problems, especially with drum brakes.  If a disc brake rotor, however, has excessive runout, it will show up as a vibration in the steering wheel.  But, if a rotor simply has thickness variation without runout, then it will show up as a pulsing in the brake pedal.  

Even if a drum is out of round, it still wont produce any side-to-side forces, like a rotor will.  Its forces will only show up in the radial direction, which will produce a vibration, not always felt in the steering wheel.  

Im not saying that youre wrong.  Im just saying that just because a vibration isnt present in the steering wheel, doesnt automatically rule out the front end in having the problem.  

Rob
66 SDV
+

Porter 21919

Rob,

I was wondering whose comments you were adressing, I dont think they were mine, however My 1990 Chevy van with front disc brakes had a steering wheel shimmy when the brakes were applied, I needed new lower ball joints after 140K mileage.

A front suspension can be checked for wear and any components needing replacement can be readilty identified.

I really dont think his brakes are the problem here, the 60 Cadillac guys have had to deal with some very unique problems with that vintage, it only gets harder as time goes by, parts availability and expense. Let alone finding a mechanic that even knows how to work on them. My 66 isnt too bad but the 68 472 engine makes things much easier, parts wise.

Porter



george

I think the comments were aimed at me. I disagree, brake discs are certainly more pronounced than drums,because of side too side pressure, but my point was I dont think it is a front drum brake fault, especially since these have been skimmed. Any fault on the front end drums or joints will manifest itself to a degree, when the brakes are applied, through the steering wheel. Based on the facts, If I had to guess I would check the rear tyres, or rear suspension.It will be interesting to hear the end result.

Porter 21919

George,

I agreed with your comments, the guys I know with 60 CDVs have had driveline vibration problems, had nothing to do with brakes or the front end, these cars have very old technology and are very fussy to get them to perform like new.

My 66 & 67 are light years ahead of a 1960 model, although the parts are becoming harder to obtain. Once you get up to a 68 Cadillac engine parts are readily available.

Porter

Ed Mobley

Hi,

Check all the front suspension bolts for proper troque - they do get loose over time especially where the lower A arms join the frame.

I dont believe the 59 drums will fit the 60 because 1960 was the first year with roller bearings.  Front drums for the 60 are not easy to come by.

Ed

Roger A. Zimmermann # 21015

Your problem is not specific to 1960 Cadillac; its a trouble each vehicle could be affected.
1957-60 Cadillacs have a weak lower ball stud. The shop manual describes how to check them; do it, you may be surprise at the play they have. If they have play, replace them even if they are expensive. Knowing Americans, you may still have the original ones in your car. Another weak part is the idler arm. Check its play also.
You may also eliminate the rear axle if you dont use the regular brake pedal but the emergency pedal. If your car is working properly, the pedal will release itself if you let the transmission lever in D. If you have no vibration doing that test, check the front suspension...

Roger

George


Geoff Newcombe CLC #4719

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions, I now have a lot of things to check further.
I was sure that my problem was in the rear because of little or no steering wheel shimmy, thats why I replaced the rear drums with new and was very surprised when it made no difference at all.  I will now be hot after the front suspension and the steering components, they were next on the list anyway.
RE: Question #2 ...... To Ed Mobley.  I have now seen one aftermarket suppliers book stating that the REAR drums from 52 to 59 are the same as the FRONT drums on the 60, I would really like to see some verification of that if someone has the Cadillac parts book(s) to make that confirmation.  The rear drums may work on the front because the 60 HUB, with its roller bearings, is pressed out of the old drums and into the new.  This was a point that had me stymied too until I remembered that.
Any further help, especially some verification about those dern drums, will be greatly appreciated.  Thank you all again.
Regards, Geoff Newcombe

Geoff Newcombe CLC #4719

I am posting this message here also which is what I had meant to do in the first place.  :-) GN

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions, I now have a lot of things to check further.
I was sure that my problem was in the rear because of little or no steering wheel shimmy, thats why I replaced the rear drums with new and was very surprised when it made no difference at all. I will now be hot after the front suspension and the steering components, they were next on the list anyway.
RE: Question #2 ...... To Ed Mobley. I have now seen one aftermarket suppliers book stating that the REAR drums from 52 to 59 are the same as the FRONT drums on the 60, I would really like to see some verification of that if someone has the Cadillac parts book(s) to make that confirmation. The rear drums may work on the front because the 60 HUB, with its roller bearings, is pressed out of the old drums and into the new. This was a point that had me stymied too until I remembered that.
Any further help, especially some verification about those dern drums, will be greatly appreciated. Thank you all again.
Regards, Geoff Newcombe

Ed Mobley

If the hubs can be pressed out of the front drums and mated to the rear drums of a 59 that would be great.  I just checked the http://www.rockauto.com TARGET=_blank>www.rockauto.com catalog and there are no rear drums listed for the 59.  However, they do have rear drums for the 60, but I dont think those could be used up front.  Could the rear drums from a 60 be used on a 59?

I see that Kanter has some from drums listed for the 60, but if they are out of stock that doesnt help.  

Ed

Ivan Zanatta

Geoff, While youre checking things under your car, have a look at that goofy ball joint above the diff and its associated mountings. Ive heard that when one of these is worn you get a variety of vibrations etc. Good Luck!

 

Bill Hedge 14424

My Hollander Interchange Manual says that the front drums for 59 through 61 are the same.  However, only 57 through 59 rear brake drums are interchangeable.

Steve #20480

My parts book list the following(excluding CC and 75):
Group 4.3870
Rear Drums
52-75;1953 thru 1959 ecx. CC part number 146 9667 either side.
Front Drums
1952 thru 1956: RH, w/R.H. thd. Bolts, front w/bearing clips  part number 145 8855
1952 thru 1956: LH, w/L.H/ thd Bolts, front w/bearing clips  part number 146 3256
1957; 58-75,CC: 59-75,CC: RH, w/R.H. thd. Bolts and bearing Cups part number 146 9666
1957; 58-75,CC: 59-75,CC: LH, w/L.H. thd. Bolts and bearing Cups part number 146 9665
1958 exc. 75,CC: 1959 exc. 75,CC: RH, w/R.H. thd. Bolts and bearing Cups part number 147 0551
1958 exc. 75,CC: 1959 exc. 75,CC: LH, w/L.H. thd. Bolts and bearing Cups part number 147 0550
My book doesnt go beyond 1960, so I dont have those numbers. I thought that 1960 was the first year Cadillac put fins on the rear brake drums to help cool them down, not certain. From experience, there is no way the front and rear drums are enterchangeable. Period. Good Luck.   Steve