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I agree with Bob Lutz

Started by Sue, April 20, 2005, 01:03:19 PM

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Sue

An interesting article in this weeks Detroit Crains Magazine about Bob Lutzs keynote speech at the recent SAE World Congress.

Bob Lutz was quoted to say things such as: "US engineers need to be more hands-on".  "We are deliberately avoiding the hands-on engineer, and I believe we need to change that."  "In many cases (US engineers) dont have the bone-deep understanding and the ability to draw and model without calling in a bunch of specialists."  "You have to have an intimate relationship with the three-dimensional object.  Youve got to see it and touch it and be able to pick it up."

Lutz says that the US system encourages a reliance on virtual engineering instead of individuals who are willing to "get their hands dirty".  

So that is why it is near impossible for the average Joe to work on his own car!!!  

Plus it probably doesnt help that a majority of those "engineers" designing new cars dont know how to change their own windshield wipers.  (But they can draw them on their computers.)

Go getem Bob!

Doug Houston

Look
whos talking! The manufacturing corporations are the ones who got this
computer "engineering" going. They (GM in particular) are losing the
battle to stay alive. Ill send you an example of what I mean. GMs
moguls need to go back to the teachings of Alfred Sloan. They need to
fire the bean counters that have run and ruined the company since 1961,
and get someone to run the outfit who is interested in giving the
customer what he wants. Its 44 years since GM began to be mismanaged,
and its been downhill since then. People have started with the company
since then and have retired, never knowing what the company was for in
the first place. GM has made too many disasterous mistakes. Nobody is
ever the better for doing it, either. Consider: the dieselized 350 Olds
engine the Vega engine, the Cadillac 4100 engine,The Chevrolet engine
mounts, the Chevy soft camshafts, the Cimarron, Cadillac Allende, and
the most recent triumph, the Pontiac Aztek. Mistakes and deliberate
blunders dont make money or PR for you. The US manufacturers havent
made an american car for so long, the public has to look at our
collector cars to see what a real automobile looks like. Its
subjective, of course, but there isnt a passenger car made today that
Id like to own. But the car makers keep grinding out the same old
shapeless jellybeans year after year. Take it or leave it. There hasnt
been a real choice in decades.
In a couple of recent CLC meetings, a guy from Cadillac told us about
the wonderful niceties coming down the road for us to buy (hopefully).
His presentation was a volley of gadgets, contraptions, conveniences,
thingamajigs, doo-dads, and whatever that you get on a car (no delete
options) that still looks like a sharp-edged jellybean. Market surveys
dont seem to have a bearing on what they want to make money on. Making
the money is the sole goal, and not what a customer might want. I
really cant see a way out for American manufacturers. I guess that
well just have to wear ear plugs and wait for the crash. Its tragic.

densie 20352


   Tony and I were discussing this last night.  My question was...

   The US carmakers made the nicest, most luxurious vehicles that were ever produced in the 1970s, and they have gone downhill in comfort and styling ever since.  Why the 30-year slide?  Autos have sunk all the way down into the garbage that Japan was churning out for $2-3000 in the 70s.  To people who have gradually moved up in model year, it may not have been as noticeable, but to those of us who were accustomed to driving older, nicer cars and suddenly moved up, its a rude shock!  Its like getting kicked out of a plush, but older, hotel suite and into a brand new room at the Motel 6.

   Tony says that US government regulations are to blame.  I dont think so.

   For the styling, yes.  Cars have to be shaped like wind tunnels, so style is no longer an option.  They might as well let the Japanese design the bodies, which, I think, is what they are doing.

   But horsepower...theyve managed to put that back into the cars despite the kicking and screaming of government.  Why cant they do that with the ride and comfort?  "Weight", says my better half, "they cant make them as heavy as they used to".  Thats not it.  A new Town Car weighs as much as the later 70s Caddies did, but it rides like a brick.

   My best guess is that the US carmakers assume that the garbage they make is what we want to buy.  Every now and then, I run across someone who doesnt think so, and its refreshing.

-densie

Lynn 10923


Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Well, I can see both sides of the story, and I have to agree with both sides of the story.

But, I still would prefer to be in the latest built motor vehicle if I was unlucky enough to be involved in an accident.

But, as I dont intend to be involved in any sort of accident, I will still drive my 60 CDV, with NO SAFETY EQUIPMENT, and be able to see all around me and park without hitting other objects as I can see all four corners on it without having to get out of the seat.

Financial constraints will never allow me to buy one of these new cars, and as I wont be buying one, the Auto Makers will be able to partially blame me for their demise.

I hope that the Auto Industry will come the full circle and start designing and building automobiles that people can really enjoy, both visually and safely, and buy cheaply.

Autos are still only about transportation from A to B, and back again, so lets get back to cheap reliable cars for us financially challenged, and expensive cars for the wealthy, and then us financially challenged will again be able to dream of having the wherewithall to move up in the world.

Isnt life full of dreams?

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV (with dual circuit brakes)

P.S.   If we didnt have "Bean Counters" how would we know how much coffee was in the jar?

P.P.S.   What we dont need is "Creative Accountants"

Randall McGrew CLC # 17963

Well I agree, Lynn...and yet, for many they are better than anything yet off the assembly line.  I had the opportunity to ride in the Chrysler top of the line mini-vans (ugh) and it was loaded with special features, leather and all the trimmings...everything one could want.  I have no idea what it cost.  I think it was a Stow-and-Go.

But...

the trimmings were all plastic.  Many of the smaller features did not work (Chrysler reliability strikes again), and most of it all relyed on the computers in the system.
It also has many, many air bags.  

What bothered me most was :

A. it was the single most uncomfortable set of seats I have ever sat in.
B. Quality Control in this case was an oxymoron.
C. It gets a respectable 19 mpg on the highway but in town it gets worse than my
     1977 Eldo. about 12 mpg.

Its safe, superficially handsome, and without any real pizzaz.  The interiors are better though with the wood and polished steel (all in brittle plastic).

I could not afford this vehicle and it is not something I would lust after but it did have separate a/c controls.  And a DVD player which would NEVER be used while I rode in it.  I am sure for most people looking for a nice car that will last them three of the four years they have to pay and can trade in, it is a decent answer with 8 seats and goo gaws galore.  Expediency, and quick turn over to maximize the warrenty is all that is required.  Ours expectations are different these days.

It is being driven home more and more that what I love about the old cars is no longer important nor desired.  I am losing interest in it all.  I just want a nice car to enjoy and after that I doubt any of it matters.

Todd Rothrauff

Hello all,

Sue makes a very good point concerning engineers.  Being a Ford Technician, I can speak first hand about how the people who designed some of these creations have never opened a hood in their life.

While the engineers create that nightmare that Joe Average cannot service, the Federal Government sets the standards to which the engineers must conform.  Government regulations, (CAFE, Emissions, FMVSS, etc.) require very sophisticated equipment in order to ensure compliance.  

And, these regulation are extremely specific.  For example, a few years ago, the Ford Focus was the subject of a Compliance Recall that concerned the A-Pillar Trim panel.  We had to replace this piece of trim because it was not in compliance with a FMVSS in the event of an accident.  The new piece looked exactally like the old one.  But, it didnt meet a government standard.

This happens all the time.  We are currently replacing the liftgate release rod on new Ford Escapes because it is not in compliance with some standard.

"Wind tunnel styling," as Denise mentioned, is a result of trying to squeeze every last MPG out of a vehicle in order to meet CAFE standards.  However, the ride and comfort issue has taken its current direction because of consumer demand.  Strange as it may sound, an overwhelming majority of comsumers dont want a wallowing land barge that leans excessively in a turn and does a ninety degree nose dive while braking.

I have said this absolute truth before - NEW CARS ARE MORE RELIABLE, MORE POWERFUL, MUCH SAFER, AND MORE EFFICIENT.  Fact, period, end of discussion.  In the Ford world, warranty work at the dealership continues to decline about 10percent each year.  

Thank you,

Todd

Randall McGrew CLC # 17963

Todd, you make some extremely realistic and valid points.  However, I do not see why you would refer to a wallowing land barge when it comes to comfort.  While the admittedly important consumer, i.e. upwardly mobile 20-30s, want BMW like performance (nothing wrong with that), many in our rapidly aging population would like a car that rides less like a sports car and more like a sedan.

 In fact, as an aging, disabled adult, I would be exceedingly thankful for a sedan with bench seats (even spit bench) that I can enter and exit without excessive discomfort, and allows us to ride from point A to point B without causing discomfort and fatique.  If you are not encumbered with a disability or simple age impairment then you probably have not real idea of the day to day problem I am talking about.

A car does not have to be a wallowing land barge to be comfortable.  My 1977 Eldorado with the proper shocks, and springs, is comfortable as well as responsive.  It is no BMW but under the hand of a trained driver it performs quite well without dipping or swaying.  If I were concerned about it, I would add a bigger sway bar but it does not need it.  

Many fall into the trap that the only reasonable and sensible argument is that of the automobile industrys business case.  That is not a viable world view.  Unfortunately many consider it just so.  It is a sad reminder of just how far out of touch people have gotten today.

Jim Skelly, CLC #15958

I prefer driving my 77 Biarritz over my Monte Carlo SS or El Camino.  It is roomy, has a comfortable seat, and has a good ride.  Sure the handling could be better, but heavy duty front shocks improved the handling enough so it doesnt feel like a barge.  

I think we can all agree that routine maintenance is generally better now than it has ever been.  Tuneups are no longer an annual event.  Paint finishes are not as good as they were on GM cars of the 1960s.  Interior upholstery tends to hold up better today than in older cars.  The quality of some materials are inferior to the older cars (chrome plated plastic parts, plastic used in high stress applications, thinner rubber seals for sunroofs and door window seals, etc.).  Part of this quality issue is driven by cost and part by government crash test deformation/absorption standards.

The styling of most new cars is just terrible.  When the new 300 is considered the best thing coming out of Detroit, you know something is wrong.  The short deck and too-small windows make it look like it was designed in sections by a committee.  The roof looks like it belongs on a humvee!  I would take any 55-71 300 over this thing - even the ugly 63-64 models.      

Enjoy the old cars for the great styling and colorful interiors because this will probably never return.  Accept the new cars as just transportation.

68 Eldorado
77 Biarritz

George Woodford clc21025

I have a 1977 Eldorado Biarritz w/EFI and have spend a lot of time gathering EFI related parts to ensure the car will continue to run for years to come without excessive down-time.  What will owners with new cars of today do when they need a computer module of some sort to repair their car 20 years from now? It appears that the automobile companies only stock parts for about 5 years now compared to 10-15 years for the cars of the 70s.  The computer age has brought about a new crisis called parts obsolesence in a new meaning.

densie

>In fact, as an aging, disabled adult, I would be exceedingly thankful for a sedan with bench seats (even spit bench) that I can enter and exit without excessive discomfort, and allows us to ride from point A to point B without causing discomfort and fatique. If you are not encumbered with a disability or simple age impairment then you probably have not real idea of the day to day problem I am talking about.

   I was just thinking about that this morning, when I ran over the speed bumps and turned in to the parking garage.  Someone who didnt have a throbbing neck and shoulder injury might not notice, or mind, the way that a newer car tosses a person around.  But couldnt there be a car, at least ONE car, out there, for the people who want or need something that doesnt?

   A car that has a decent pair of shocks can have reasonably soft springs and ride smoothly without dipping or rolling.  It may not do as well around the pylon cones as a sports car, but does that matter?  Im just driving to work and back, and an occasional highway trip, and Id like to be able to do it without being jostled around.


-d

Porter 21919

Like most all new products you buy nowadays, like a computer, technologically obsolete in three years.

You can take a 60s car and install steel radial tires, gas shocks, disc brakes and some other goodies and it will perform comparable to the new cars. I did that with my 66 Vette years ago, steel radials and Bilstein shocks, TRW rear leaf spring, kept the antique Holley carb on the factory 327/350 hp engine, could eat Mustangs for lunch.

My 90 Chevy van has throttle body fuel injection, that eliminates the troublesome antique carburetor.

You can take the old car quality and add on some new technology and they are a superior machine to this new high tech overpriced junk they are foisting on the public, they can keep their air bags too. GM added the collapsable steering column in 1967 and the shoulder harness in 1968.

I second Lynns comments, the new cars are a joke.

GM is a follower instead of a leader like they used to be, they need to think outside of the box. They have so much debt now they may not survive, bankrupcty is not out of the question.

Ill drive a Jap car when GM or Ford doesnt exist anymore, only because I would have to.

Porter

 


John Olenchalk #17776

Todd,
Thanks for your message. I for one, think many of the new cars are spectacular in terms of ride, comfort, and safety- but styling is pretty conformist in each class, and maintenance is frightful if youre not under warranty.  
I drive a 99 F-350 Super Duty Crew Cab 4x4 turbo diesel as my daily driver in Silicon Valley, less and less my 66 Eldo due to ridiculous fuel costs-  but my preferred rental cars are usually Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car because they are plenty comfortable and get great mileage.  Not much for character, but I hate the ride of their contemporary Cadillac/GM counterparts.  
You guys in the American car industry deserve a pat on the back for working under extremely challenging conditions, and having made a pretty good comeback from the 70s, albeit with less market share...

John Olenchalk #17776

Lets face it, the car manufacturers have either consciously or lucked onto the secret that makes Bill Gates and Michael Dell so immensely wealthy- we have to buy new computer hardware and software every 3-5 years, e.g., Windows 97/2000/2003, the Pentium I, II, etc...All they had to do was make their vehicles dependent on those systems and youve got another industry that manufactures obsolescence.  Problem is, its gotten damn expensive unless youre under warranty.

Todd Rothrauff

Randall,

You are entirely correct on the comfort issue.  Unfortunately, there are times when the connection between my brain and my typing fingers is not working correctly.  While I was thinking about the changes in desireable performance characteristics, I was typing something different.  I appologize for that.

Yes, comfort is an entirely different issue.  I have said this before - I would trade my 1996 Mark VIII for a 1977/78 Eldorado Biarritz in a heartbeat.  They have THE most comfortable seats of any automobile on the planet.  The styling is beautiful, and the mechanicals are simple.  But, if I wanted to do this because I thought the Eldo accelerated/braked/handled/slurped gas better than my Mark, I would be a fool.  There is something wonderful about the personality of an old car that a new one cannot provide.

I have seen the term "wallowing land barge" used in new vs. old comparisons to describe the overall handling characteristics of older vehicles.  And, after owning several of each, I agree with that assesment.  My 1965 Deville Convertible, 1969 Mark III, and 1984 Coupe de Ville could be downright scarey in any kind of emergency maneuvers, (especially the 1965 Deville with its virtually useless 4-wheel drum brakes).

And, YES, I fully understand your comments concerning a person with disabilities.  Plese allow me to make a long story as short as I can .  .  .

In 1948, my father broke his neck in a swimming accident, leaving him a quadraplegic.  After leaving the hospital, now in a wheelchair, he continued on with life, although at a different pace.  He became involved in local politics, got married, and (WARNING

Todd Rothrauff

Im not sure how I managed to hit the enter key, but I did.  Something is obviously not working for me today.  So, lets try this again.

As I was saying, I fully understand your comments concerning a person with disabilities. In 1948, my father broke his neck in a swimming accident, leaving him a quadraplegic. After leaving the hospital, now in a wheelchair, he continued on with life, although at a different pace. He became involved in local politics, got married, started a business, and (WARNING - shameless self-promotion dead ahead!) adopted two beautiful, wonderful children.

Family outings required enough room for Mom, Dad, two kids and Dads electric wheelchair.  Mom would put us kids in the car, pick my dad up and put him in the front seat, lift the batteries off the wheelchair so it could be placed into the trunk.  

In the 1970s, Dad got a car-top mounted hydraulic lift.  This made it much easier to get him into the seat.  This was great since large, two-door cars were plentiful.

My dad always used to say how much he loved sitting in that big, comfortable car seat when traveling.  Over the years, the disappearance of the two-door car made it much more difficult for him to be lifted in the passenger seat.  The final blow came with the end of the rain gutters.  Now, the car-top lift could no longer be attached to the roof.

The new wave of accessible minivans in the 1990s solved the space problem.  But, the days of sitting in a big, comfortable chair were gone.  

My dad experienced first hand how the industry, in his eyes, abandoned him (it is at this point that your question of is-there-a-point-to-this-rambling is answered).

As a side note, I love this forum.  It allows a diverse qroup of people with different perspectives a chance to interact.

Thank you for listening.

Todd

densie 20352


  The shoulder belt may not be as wonderful an invention as law enforcement seems to think it is.  Its a prybar that pulls your spine and upper ribs apart, even in low speed collisions.

  I had my auto accident at about 35 mph, and the oncoming car was doing less than 10, cutting across the boulevard trying to make a left turn in front of me.  The shoulder belt caused permanent damage to my shoulder, and chronic pain that may last the rest of my life.  Wearing just a lap belt might have caused trauma to the steering wheel, but would that have been worse?  Im not convinced.

  Try this, if you have access to a medical skeleton (your doctor would probably let you look at his).  Put your left arm around the shoulder where a shoulder belt would be, and push the head forward.  See the place where the first two ribs come around the back of the neck and meet the vertebrae?  Watch as your head acts as a prybar and pulls all of those bones apart.  OUCH!

  Air bags seem like a good idea, but I really dont like having an explosive device, armed with a detonator, right in front of me when Im driving.  The fact that they kill children and blow peoples thumbs apart doesnt impress me, either.

  One intelligent thing to do would be to put a harness around both shoulders...maybe suspended from a roll bar?

  Another intelligent thing to do would be to let people make their own decisions regarding safety devices.  One size doesnt necessarily fit all.  Instead of discussing which safety devices people should be forced to use, talk about what safety options might be available for us.

  For instance, why does a race car driver walk out of a 200 mph wreck, when a passenger car driver is killed at 50 mph?  Maybe we want the protection that the race car has.  Maybe we dont want any safety devices?  Or maybe we want to choose which part of our bodies we would place at risk, and which to give a little more protection?  We all have parts of our bodies that mean more to us than others!

  I drive my car with my shoulder belt behind me sometimes.  I  cant stand the thought of having my shoulder pulled apart again, and my experience tells me that I would probably be better off going into the air bag at 35 mph.  Of course if I get pulled over, theres no point in telling a cop that.  He has been educated to believe that shoulder belts should be forced around people, and hes not going to make an exception for anything.

-denise

Rhino 21150

I had two cars with roll bars. One was a VW based dune buggy, the other was a Corvair dragster. They both had five point harnesses attached to the bar. The Corvair was spring loaded. I never hit anything with either, but I felt quite secure.
Race car safety is at the expense of comfort. If you dont like your Mercury, you would hate something built as safe as a racer.
The engine costs money, your kidneys, bones and liver are expendable! But the noise, well, thats a matter of taste.
I have been in an accident where the airbag went off. A rear ender in an Escort, about 25mph. Broke both of my thumbs, just hairline cracks. Still hurts sometimes two and a half years later. I agree that safety gear should be designed by stuntmen, not Congress Critters.
As for wearing your belt, check the statute at the library. In N.C. there are exemptions for : mail service, the paperboy, short hop vehicles under 35 mph, slow farm vehicles, PEOPLE WITH RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL PROBLEMS. Look up the statute and then ask your doctor to look at the statute and give you a "note".

densie


  There it is, in the Arizona statutes as well

 2. A person possessing a written statement from a physician that the person is unable for medical or psychological reasons to wear a lap and shoulder belt or a lap belt.

  I would not have thought to ask my doctor if you hadnt mentioned it.

   There still might be a problem with city or federal statutes.  Ive heard that Tucson was trying to pass a special revenue enhancement of $250 for seat belt tickets, but I havent heard the latest.  This doctors note might help in any situation.

thanks

-densie

densie


  This was the dilemma that I faced after my auto accident.  I didnt want to spend the money for a new car, but Ive been listening to all of these accounts of problems with the computerized junk, and so what would happen if I bought a three or four year old car and it had problems?  No warranty, no practical way to fix it.  There is one good auto electric shop that I know of in Tucson, and they have a six week waiting list.

-densie