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False information in the Cadillac Database

Started by Yann Saunders, CLC #12588, June 24, 2005, 02:27:12 PM

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Yann Saunders, CLC #12588

When this controversy began, Gita and I were busy planning a 2-month, 34th wedding anniversary trip through Australasia.  Having a few moments of respite, now, before heading off again (to Europe this time) for the next two months, I took time to read through all the comments in the Forum thread headed "RARE 1957 ELDORADO FOR SALE ON EBAY???".  

My statement today is motivated in particular by Mikes post on January 6 that suggested I might be hiding something from Forum users. He said, "Yann, you have been conspicuously quiet." Its time to set things straight.

What started the whole controversy appears to have been this post of mine on January 4, 2005: "Its amazing what people pick up from my "Cadillac Database" ...and proceed to DEFORM ! Remember the 1937 V-16 convertible coupe by Hartmann (of Lausanne, Switzerland) ? Just for fun, I mentioned [IN THE STORY I WROTE ABOUT THAT CAR IN THE CADILLAC DATABASE] that [I HAD TOLD A FRENCH JOURNALIST IN THE 80s] the car had been specially ordered by Simon Patiño, the South American tin magnate. This (deliberately false) information was seized upon and propagated by the French magazine, "NITRO". It was picked up, even later, by the Barrett-Jackson folks who deformed it even further. We learned from them that the Hartmann car was a unique creation by Figoni & Falaschi and that it was built for a mysterious "Betino Tin Magnet" [i.e. Patiño, the tin magnate !]  So, folks, dont believe everything you see in writing. It could be that nutty Yann Saunders gay [an unfortunate mis-spelling of "guy"!] just testing your credulity !

1.  Johnny picked up that post and set the cat among the pigeons when he said, "I seriously question why you would want to have some fun by posting false information [IN THE DATABASE?]."  Johnny seemed to believe that I had indeed posted false information in the Database, whereas I just proved a point by misinforming a French journalist, verbally, sixteen years ago! Is not "misinformation" a recognized tactic to try to elicit the truth?

2.  Johan appeared to share Johns opinion.  He said, "There are several ways of having your fun ... The use of the Cadillac DATABASE ...is, I think, the least wanted one..."

3.  Derek cranked it up a notch saying, "That single post destroyed most, if not all, of my faith in the Cadillac Database..." (I assume Derek was referring to my post of January 4, shown in extenso, above).

4.  Lou added, "This kind of admittance [admission?] of knowingly falsifying information [???] for self amusement should not be taken lightly. It jeopardizes the credibility of the entire body of work [IN THE CADILLAC DATABASE] and the CLC museum. It is my opinion that full disclosure in regards to this matter is in order."

5.  Derek agreed saying, "Full disclosure is imperative ... if there are more Easter Egg [HIDDEN] falsehoods like this one, it does a great disservice to all of the hard work done by the CLC Museum..." Derek seemed to be convinced that the Database was rampant with deliberate falsehoods and misinformation!

6.  Gerald was more circumspect when he said, "I do not know why Yann made this joke, I have not read the discriminating [incriminating?] passage so I cant judge ... I know from other passages of the V16 chapter that he used a narrative style with some fictitious elements and clearly stated so. Maybe this came from such a story? We all should read this before we shout out, maybe its very obvious!"  That was good advice, Gerald.  Of my detractors, however, I wonder how many of them actually took it before continuing to throw stones at the Database and me.

7.  Johnny added, "I just dont see the need to fool around with facts concerning Cadillacs, especially the one he did with." It appears that Johnny too was still convinced I fooled around with Database facts.  Are these people SERIOUS ???

8.  Gerald came to the rescue adding, "Looks like Yann made his joke back in the 80s - even before the Data Base was up..."  He went to the trouble of quoting the full text of the Database entry that referred to the joke I had made in the 80s [sixteen years before the birth of the Cadillac Database] at the expense of a French magazine known at the time for publishing "circumstantial facts" about Cadillacs, inter alia.

9.  Derek still believed that I inserted "false facts" into the Database, just for fun. He did admit not taking time to look for the alleged "false facts" (on the page that relates to the Hartmann-bodied 1937 V-16 roadster: http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/16HRTM.HTM. TARGET=_blank>www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/16HRTM.HTM. Derek was of the opinion that something had to be done about my "...inserting (false) facts just for fun". But what?  Fifteen lashes?  Disbarment? Better still, "Dismemberment"! Or should the CLC insert a disclaimer in their home page saying: "Note: the Clubs Cadillac Database contains false facts just for fun" ?

10.  Tony joined in the discussion to try to moderate the issue. He said, "Some folk have gone off half-cocked not reading the article in the Database first."  Like Gerald, Tony suggested that people take the time to investigate ALL the facts before spouting off.

11.  Gerald tried again to save me (and the Cadillac Database) from further obloquy.  He said, "You can clearly see that Yann did not put his joke into the Database!!! The wrong information is !!NOT!! in the Database - he even explains the myth and tries to correct things! READ IT!" But did the detractors read it ?  Not !

12.  Johnny said he assumed rightly that I had definitely  "put the false information in the Cadillac Database" because he read this quote of mine, "Its amazing what people pick up from my Cadillac Database ...and proceed to DEFORM ! "  In fact, Johnny is doing just that, DEFORMING something in the Database that he has taken completely out of context!

13.  John Tozer is another supporter of my tireless efforts since 1996 to inform, educate and entertain [on my own time and at my own expense] Cadillac enthusiasts all over the world.  He said, "I find the whole manner and haste in which this post has become an attack on someone that has done an extraordinary job for this Club a disgrace."

14.  Johnny still felt "... sort of betrayed by what he [Yann] posted about his fun post."  This shows how Johnny remains convinced that I definitely had posted false facts in the Database.  Obviously, he, like so many others, did NOT take any time to read and to analyze the true facts.

15.  Mike continued, "I was somewhat shocked by Yanns admission that he knowingly posted information on the Database that was not true..."  What !?!? I assume Mike he was referring to a snippet of deliberate mis-information that I gave to a French journalist, in the 80s [NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DATABASE], simply to PROVE to some auto-loving friends of mine, that "you can never believe ALL you read or see on TV". I think I proved my point!

16.  So, YES, I am guilty of deliberately misinforming a French auto magazine, sixteen years ago. At the time, however, said  magazine did NOT have a reputation for investigative reporting, although there has been a marked improvement in recent years. I guess Im just as guilty as Orson Welles whose radio broadcast on the eve of Halloween, 1938, convinced thousands of Americans  into believing that New York was under attack by Martians!  Scores of adults reportedly required medical treatment for shock and hysteria !!!

17.  Mike didnt give up. He said: "But in the end, your admission, though jocular, has had a negative effect."  It seems that Mike continued to believe that my "admission" of guilt was related to some deliberate misinformation he determined [IN ERROR] that I had posted in the Database. Right on Mike! In fact, what has had a "negative effect"  [both on my personal reputation and that of the Database] are the "negative" comments of all those on this thread who threw in their 2 cents worth without first taking time to investigate the facts.

18.  Randall summed it up this way: "...life is too short and too expensive to waste on this sort of thing."  How right you are Randall. Were it not for encouragement from people like Gerald, John and Randall, and if I were not as hard-skinned, I might be tempted to remove the "public" version of the Cadillac Database from the Web, leaving only a hard copy for consultation in the CLC museum and Research Center in Detroit. However, that would  deprive too many clear-headed aficionados of what I still consider to be an excellent - albeit incomplete - source of information on Cadillac cars and trivia.  At this writing, the Database has had over 650,000 hits (up from 60,000 in 1999).  The Guest Book is filled with positive comments and encouragement. In eight years on the Web, Ive seen only a couple of negative ones. So thats like 0.0003percent negativity.  I reckon I can live with that.  

19. Let me repeat [TILL IM BLUE IN THE FACE]:  included in the Cadillac  Database are only "facts" drawn from source(s) which, in my opinion, seem the most reliable. It is for you, the user, to point out any errors, omissions or inconsistencies you may come across so that, together, we can improve the Database and thus better serve the hobby. CAN I BE ANY MORE CLEAR ?


20.  Finally, and with all due modesty, as Theodore MacManus said in his acclaimed Cadillac advertisement, "The Penalty of Leadership", drafted on the back of an envelope while on a train trip in 1914, "That which is good or great makes itself known, no matter how loud the clamour of denial. That which deserves to live - lives."

Long live the Cadillac Club, the Cadillac Database, the Cadillac Forum and CONTRUCTIVE criticism of ANY and ALL of them !

Randall McGrew CLC # 17963

I am glad that you put all of this down, Yann.  However I had thought it at rest...I probably missed something.  Anyway I still think the Database is an excellent source and the links to other sources that you provide are marvelous.

I would not take any of this too harshly.  Many people are reacting to the polarism in our country now, and I think it is being reflected into everything we do.  We are at odds because our leaders are at odds.  Regardless of which side you are on, it is clear that this ambivelance is becoming very active.

I am very glad you  have decided to keep the database up and available.  Any errors in the data, should there be any, really are the responsibility of those who know better.  If you know of a problem, please write and tell Yann.
Dont simply assume he will find it.

I support Yanns efforts that he did on his own and for the love of the marque we all enjoy.  Thank you for your efforts, Yann.

Paul W Allen


Tod - North TX CLC

Here, Here -

When I first discovered the Cadillac database (before I frequented the CLC boards), I was amazed at the effort that was put into archiving all of the data, assuming that it must have been a tremendous task undertaken by a large team of savvy users.  When I later discovered that Yann was the one primarily responsible for the collection and maintenance of the data, I was dumbstruck.  It is unfathonable that one person could have made such a significant contribution to the Cadillac community.

I have said it before, but it bears repeating - "Thanks, Yann"

John Tozer #7946

Yann,

For the record, I dont believe you were ever in need of vindication but this post sure does it. Keep up the great work you have done, not just on the Database but in the almost instantaneous and always interesting manner in which you respond to every post that comes your way on this forum.

John Tozer

Tim Pawl CLC#4383

Yann, your amazing body of work speaks for itself. Thank you for all you do.

Bernie DeWinter, IV

For the record, I can attest that I found a lot of wrong information on the database when I first checked it out, particularly in the area of professional cars. The main reason why I noticed it was because few people were nutty enough to spend as much time researching that part of automotive history as Ive been. I dont doubt that there will always be some erroneous information on that database, but given its massive size, thats to be expected to some degree, too. And it isnt because Yann hasnt been trying to get things as accurate as he can, either. Ive worked with Yann to correct some information where I could do so, and Im still impressed by his efforts!!! Far too many hobbies and clubs are overrun with whiners who like to sit back and complain, while never lifting a finger to do any good for anyone else in the process. Yann is obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum from people like that, and I support and applaud his efforts 112percent!!!!!

Furthermore, it seems like the more one does for a hobby or club, the more people seem to think that person OWES their knowledge to others. Its funny how those others never stop to think that the information in question was usually learned on the researchers own time at their own expense. Yann is obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum from people like that, and its obvious to me that hes more than paid his dues to the club and the hobby. One person like Yann is easily worth at least 200 whiners. Many thanks, Yann!

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Congratulations Yann,

Now, would you like me to call the hospital and book you in for some finger surgery after all that typing.

You needed the Southern Hemispherical Holiday to prepare yourself to compile the message.

It isnt surprising that mis-information appears as a lot of people simply take what they want to take in.   Lots of words, without lots anbd lots of pictures, takes a lot of reading.   I started reading your post and decided it was time to take the dog for a walk and had to restart when I got back.   But, it was well worth reading, and now I am rambling on.   (should I make a joke here?   maybe later)

As someone said, whoever casts the first stone............

Your knowledge of all things worth knowing is superb, and dont let the detractors let you down.

I am only jualous that it wasnt me that supplied the false information to the French Magazine.   We should start making a list of the things that the French have got wrong in the past, but then, there wouldnt be enough paper in the world to complete the list. ha ha.

Keep up the good work Yann, and I havent found any problems with the Database.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV.

P.S.   Thanks for pointing out to me that my Steering Wheel was upside down.   Now I look at every 60 wheel and cant believe that so many are upside down.  

Johnny

Allow me to first join in the praise of your database.  I have never seen such an extensive source for Cadillac information. You are obviously a person that puts a lot of yourself in your work, as shown by your detailed post.  My question is "Why are you beating your own dead horse"?  What is the purpose of bring this up again? I would think by this time most of us have forgotten about the whole incident, I know I did.

Understand my concern was one of disappointment over the "controversary".  Like yourself I am a stickler for detail, and I always seek the most reliable source for gathering information about subjects.  I considered, and still do, your database the "go to" place for Cadillac information.  When this incident came to surface, I felt like a little kid when he is told there is no Santa Claus.  I got over finding out the reality of Santa Claus and I got over the whole "database" issue.

Andrew 10642

The prior thread beating on Yann proves the maxim that no good deed goes unpunished.  I think any BB is a poor forum to have an intelligent, constructive discussion of any fault because most people either do a poor-to-average job of explaining their position or reading/understanding the postings of others.  I also agree that in society today polite discussion seems to be seen as unnecessary, when in fact it is more needed than ever.

Yann, Im sorry you had to waste the time defending yourself, perfection is not the standard for volunteering ones time and effort, obviously, and if folks cant see all the good because of a perceived or actual blip, then we probably havent lost much if they leave due to their disillusionment.

Enjoy your trip, and remember 99percent of those using your database recognize that it is a unique knowledge base and is not infallible (but invaluable!).  I hope you know that if only 1 percent of those looking are inspired to learn more about the marque, then you are responsible for thousands of new Cad-LaSalle fans.

Yann Saunders, CLC #12588

Johnny, thanks for your praise of my work on the Database. It is rewarded daily by a stream of enthusiastic visitors and the constant approval of the majority of them. But I do also have some detractors, it seems.  

I reject forcefully the notion that I am "flogging a dead horse" here.  The fact is, I have been extremely busy since January (Bruce will confirm this since he wore out Gita and I on an endless hunt, in March, for the Tasmanian devil).  

Only today did I find time the time [in the middle of installing hard wood floors in our new condo, as well as preparing our impending next trip to Europe - July 3], to review those January posts, to analyze them, to try to determine what I might have done to deserve the disesteem of yourself and others and to try to correct my seemingly wayward ways.

Looking at my earlier posting today (esecially paras. 1, 7, 12 and 14) and your most recent assertion that "When this incident came to surface, I felt like a little kid when he is told there is no Santa Claus," it seems clear to me that you remain convinced that I deliberately posted false information in the Cadillac Database, even though you do assert that you have "got over the whole database issue."

Let me hear you say that you misinterpreted the "facts" and that you really are convinced, now, that I am innocent of the accusations made against me.

Then I can bury the dead horse.

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

I can attest to the doggedness of Yann, and have pictures to prove that had it not been for Gitas yelling and screaming, he would have been taken by a Tassie Devil, and probably wouldnt have been able to type again.   Geez, he even tried to become a Kangaroo as well.

Please bury the dead horse, or there wont be much left to bury.

I am sure that a few Americans believed what I told them about Australia and Tasmania in 2002, but as they havent yet got actual proof, they are none the wiser.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

Johnny

[Let me hear you say that you misinterpreted the "facts" and that you really are convinced, now, that I am innocent of the accusations made against me. Then I can bury the dead horse.]

One of my pet peeves concerning Internet Message Boards, is that quite frequently a persons posts get misinterpreted.  Sometimes a post that is made in jest is taken serious and debates start and very quickly take on a life of their own.  I think in this case it was matter of my misinterpreting your intentions with your post. It is obvious that you have put a great amount of time and effort in your database, and this whole debate should have never taken place.  I was too quick on the trigger with my negative post.  This was prompted by my great admiration for the database.
Looking back, if I knew the ensuing brouhaha would have taken place, I would have kept my mouth shut.  I will be the first to say that you are innoncent of any negative accusations.  Actually looking back, it is kinda a funny thing you did.








Jim Eccleston CLC 16079

Yann, you certainly do not deserve this heartache and hassle. Please be assured that we appreciate all of the work you have done to benefit the club and Cadillac-dom.

Dick Heller

Yann - Thanks for your contribution in creating and maintaining this excellent source of information.  (NB:  I have swamped you with emails on 57/58 Broughams that I have come across on eBay.)

Michael Stamps 19507

Yann,
  First I want to say that I have used your database and while hard to navigate it does have usefull information.

  Second the problem that I had back in January was you admitted to   spreading false information with no real motive.  With you being considered a Cadillac expert that raises questions about what other false information you may or may not have spread.  Im not saying that you have done it other than that one time but how are we to know when you have cast doubt on your own word.

Stampie

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Stampie,

At least Yann admitted it right from the start, and that was before he became a "Cadillac Expert", and it was done for a reason.

Gee, I have even spread false information, like about Tasmania being "Gods Country", and I still keep on doing it.   Now, nobody believes me about anything.

But, think about the Governments that spread false information, and never admit to it, but still stay in power, and actually get re-elected.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

P.S.   Did I mention anything about Gods Country

Paul





Bernire DeWinter, you have hit the nail on the head with your follwing observation:

"Furthermore, it seems like the more one does for a hobby or club, the more people seem to think that person OWES their knowledge to others. Its funny how those others never stop to think that the information in question was usually learned on the researchers own time at their own expense. Yann is obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum from people like that, and its obvious to me that hes more than paid his dues to the club and the hobby. One person like Yann is easily worth at least 200 whiners. Many thanks, Yann! "

That statement hit a raw nerve with me. There are givers and there are takers. Yann is a giver, and there are many enthusiasts in our clubs who run on pure raw energy, and  enthusiasm for their passion not asking for any recognition - but copping critism from negative members who feel entitled. Yann is such a person (giver). For the record, and to remind the whiners about giving and not expecting, I recall as a younger member of the Aussie Cadillac Club that upon joining, our club magazine (La Cad) was COSTING our local Aussie club money (draining the club of funds) and yet was only a few pages, no pics, all type, printed on the old 1960s style gestetner printer. No criticism of the editors at the time, as they did a TREMENDOUS job with the limited funds and resources they had (all in their own time), but I felt that with my new computer, I could update the mag and make La Cad a more contemporary publication. At a Club meeting, it was announced that the then-editor was retiring andpresented with awards and speeches). A volunteer was called to take over the editor role. I raised my hand and explained that I had a new computer (this was back in the early-mid 1990s) when very few people had a home computer. As I work in the media, I also had my own first version of Quark Express and Photoshop, enabling me to do lay-outs and scan pictures. I offered to give the magazine a go, and explained what I thought I could do for La Cad. There was palpable relief from the club committee that someone (sucker?) was prepared to take on the job. I was, then discreetly reminded by the treasurer that "theres no money, so dont go spending any."

However I noticed that there were a couple of 1/2 page free ads in the magazine for a local mechanic and auto-electrican or other...I asked the club treasurer, how much these advertisers were paying for the space. I was dumbfounded to learn, "nothing".

The ads were given away to friends-of-friends in the club.

I then asked if it were okay if I could start charging (reaonable rates) for ads. To which I was informed, "No-one will pay for the ads". I replied with, "How do you know? Have you ever asked?". He replied, "Well, no".

The club committee was very supportive and allowed me great lattitude, so I appointed myself advertisiing manager, as well as being editor. I got on the telephone, and called all local (i.e. in Australia) and overseas (USA) potential Cadillac-related advertisers. Locally they were mostly chrome-platers, transmission re-builders, imported American car-parts suppliers etc. In the USA it was mostly advertisers I was familiar with through HEMMINGS (McVeys, Honest John, SMS auto fabrics etc). To my great surprise, 99percent of the potential advertisers were keen, and grateful to be able to expose their products and services DIRECTLY to Cadillac (or car) restorers - their main business. Remember, this was back in the early - mid 1990s, and there was NO internet. So all overseas calls, faxes etc and other costs were rather expensive and time-consuming. I bore all these costs myself, as the club had "no money". I set the ad rates at very reasonable rates, but I sold so many 1/4 page. 1/2 page and full page ads, that each issue I published was highly profitable for the club.

After two years the treasurer was glowing with reports at the meetings that the club was enjoying its healthiest position ever - all put down to "strong membership".

Six hours every night, 6 nights a week, it was typing, calling, editing, scanning, laying out, collecting money, mailing the cheques to the treasurer, driving to the printers, picking up  the magazines and delivering to the club etc. Four quarterly issues a year, never missed a deadline. Yet, after two years, I became tired and worn out by the constant criticisms that the magazine was "too different", "under one persons control" (but no volunteers to help when I asked) and many, many, many phone calls from club members asking "whens my next magazine due?". I had to remind them that it was just one person doing ALL the work, and usually I got, Yeah...but I pay my $40 a year membership and all I get is the magazine." To which I replied, "Well, I pay my fees, too....and why then dont you join in some club activities and runs, so that you get MORE from your club than just a quartely magazine?"

Finally, after a couple of years the magazine had reached such a level that one or two committe members became quite...lets say...."possessive"... of what the magazine had become. It was proposed that an editorial committee be set up to overseas all aspects of the magazine (i.e. taking all creativity away), but I would still have to chase the revenue, and do all the typing, lay-out etc. (There was NO internt then so no copy and paste - all typing of every word). All articles, contributiuons etc were sent to me on scraps of paper). It was proposed by one committee member that my new role would become more the magazines office clerk. There were a number of other criticisms levelled....but no offer to assist in typing and, printing, advertising etc.

In the end, I decided that my heart wasnt in it anymore. My own personal costs and sweat raised the magazine to a very high standard. Best of all it was generating very good profits for the club. I resigned. This pee-ed off some committee members and I became ostracised. No speeches, no awards. Just expectations and entitlements by a few (but not the majority) of some committee members and some financial members.

The following editor carried on with the same layouts (small changes), columns, ads etc, and won an international award for achieving and producing such high standards for a club magazine. (What the...?). La Cad has pretty much carried on with the same designs, formats, economic platform etc that I created and to this date is considered one of the better club magazines in the world (which is what I was told by several of the US advertisers while I was editor / advertisiing manager...and they kept advertising for this reason).

The current treasurer (different to the one in the 1990s) told me a couple of years ago how much money the club had in its account (accumulated mostly over the past 10 years, and I assume due to both membership funds, but also advertising profits that I knew the magazine was generating).

I have made many friends in the Cadillac Club, one (gday Quentin, who also became editor with the same boyish enthusiasm and energy), and also faced similar criticisms to myself, especially from NON-CONTRIBUTING members who felt entitled.

Like me, Quentin also quit as editor after a couple of years. "Not worth the hassle."

Yann.....you are an amazing person who has left a legacy that will live forever, or as long as people love their Cadillacs. To the naysayers, have another read at what you have posted on the message board. Perhaps some understanding and a retraction might be in order. Yann is a giver who has shared all his knowledge and time at his cost, and his time.

Paul Zanetti
Cadillac Lover / Cartoonist
Former editor La Cad.
Owner 1959 Biarritz / 1961 Biarritz


Yann Saunders, CLC #12588

Did you sign previously as "Mike" on this thread?

You state: "...you admitted to spreading false information WITH NO REAL MOTIVE" [my emphasis]. Wrong. Read!

I DID mention my motive, although perhaps not in sufficient detail to allay the fears of the faithless Forum few who now would make me out to be a habitual liar.  

In fact, as I said, I was merely trying to make a point to some Swiss friends (this was back in the early 80s when I still lived over there - and certainly a long time before my Cadillac Database went on line) that certain journalists (and many of  their "blind" readers) consider ALL information heard or seen in print or TV to be the Gospel truth. Even Dennis Adler, a great automotive writer/journalist for whom I have considerable respect and admiration did NOT check his facts when he wrote his own take on the Hartmann car for "Auto Gallery" (Vol. 1 #9), in September 1987. He wrote:

"In October of 1936, South American industrialist Carlos [I had said, "Simon"] Patino was visiting the Paris Auto Salon, saw the Figoni et Falaschi Delahaye, and decided to have one like it ... so Patino took his V-16 to Switzerland, and there commissioned the firm Hartmann to copy the 1936 Figoni Delahaye."  Dennis added, "His [Hartmanns] bumpers were also somewhat unique, using a square-formed design with curved and pointed outer edges."  Dennis obviously was describing the Hartmann car as he saw after it was exported to the USA by an Iranian speculator, in 1987. By that time, the bumpers on the car were the hexagonal, French Batain type that had been installed by Jean-Jacques Belet, who had restored the car the first time in the late 60s. The original, custom "bumperettes" were destroyed 40 years earlier in a fender-bender, in Lausanne. You can see the originals in early photos of the car on this page of the Clubs "Cadillac Database":

http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/16hrtm.htm TARGET=_blank>http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/16hrtm.htm

There you can read the TRUE story of the special Hartmann V-16 roadster and learn how someone actually replaced the coach builders plate by another that touted the car as being an original F&F design. That may explain why this car, that was bought for $925, in 1968, could be offered for sale, 20 years later, by the respected Tom Barrett, for $3,500,00 !!!

To all who still doubt: I hereby certify that there is NO deliberately FALSE information in the Cadillac Database. There may be errors, as Bernie De Winter pointed out.  But thats why I included the following statement in the "Foreword" [did anybody bother to read it?]: "Of course, the accuracy of the Database is a reflection of the accuracy of the inputs from the various sources where I gleaned the information; errors, therefore, are inevitable. With your help, nonetheless, we may gradually cancel them out."  

Bernie (and others) have been very helpful in that respect.  I just wish that more of you would be as constructive in their criticism as is Bernie has been.


Yann Saunders, CLC #12588

Where you see $3,500,00 in my last posting, read :  $3,500,000 !!!

Sorry for the typo.