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odd ball 59 and 60 cady

Started by robert p millian, August 15, 2005, 04:32:31 PM

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robert p millian

Just came across this 59 cady with a 60 body on ebay. here is the link. If link doesnt appear hear is the item number 4568045273.

bob

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Oh dear, Mr Ludvg is back again with his "extremely ""RARE"" Cadillac".

I suppose it will sell, one day, to some unsuspecting buyer.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

dale jackson

   If you look at the restore its not factory correct under hood. In the parts book from gm the bare convertible frame is the same as 1959 or 1960 car.  You could buy an 1959 rust bucket and install an 1960 body on its chassis if you wanted build it. The vin tags are screwed in body and replaced easy on the 1959 cadillac or 60 car. Its very easy to build that car using an 59 frame and body.

  I dont know ifs fake or real but thats to much money 158000 for an 1959 or 60 cadillac thats not even an eldo or whatever. I know I would never pay that for an pair fins unless its say brand new 1959 eldo with 0 miles  that has been in climate controlled storage since it was new. I guess that dealer makes his living from selling expensive cars to peaple.

Yann Saunders, 12588

Hi Robert,  you have more info on the 60 Cad than anybody else I know (and BTW, thanks for what youve already shared with me and with the Cadillac Database).  Whats your take on this car ? My personal opinion is that its a made-up job in which Cadillac (the company) had no involvement whatsoever. Ive been in touch with the vendor.  Accorsing to him, I dont know s...t about Cadillacs !

robert p millian

Hi Yann

I believe I probally have every piece of literature such as upolstry,paint,data,flat rate manuels,and all documents and bulletins and film strips a total of 29 and I mean everything that was ever published by Cadillac on the 1960 Cadillac. I have it all. Many items nobody has ever seen. There is nothing ever shown or mentioned in all my inventory of such a car as this built by Cadillac motor division. This cady had to have been done over by a private person.

bob

Joe Meneghin

whatever it is, that car goes to show how much the market can change in a few months.  Hes had that car on ebay on and off for about 6 months and I believe the bidding had trouble hitting 100k just a few months ago.  


While the comments here make alot of sense, I have to tell you if that car was sold new with a regular dash and am radio, whoever installed that tv did one hell of a job making it look like oem work.

robert p millian

I would like to add the following as to the engine compartment.
The p/s pump and bracket are the wrong color. Pulley and bracket should be blue and pump black.
Master cylinder top cap wrong. Its after market.
Radiator cap wrong. Should be ac RC6 13lb cap
Hose clamps wrong
Fuel pump wrong, its after market
Trans dip stick top should be blue
No decals anywhere that I can see.
This car is mickey mouse.Restored by someone that had no idea what is correct.

bob

bob

dale jackson

  I called the dealer on car. It was strange. He said he was not an car dealer but very rich man who made millions in 1960 from inventing an the car streao. He said he had over 500 or 1000 cars in his fleet. He used own a ferrai dealership. Its seems it kept avoiding the qustions I wanted know about the cadillac. He said his cadillac was priceless and want even talk money but wanted talk about trading stuff for it. I said your car is fetching world record prices and still he did want sale car.

   On the car itself he said he spent over 18000 dollers on the recrome all the crome stuff and said he bought top boot aftermarket I think from classic caddys. He bought  10 old tv sets from all over the world for parts. He even said he knew Harley Earl grandson but I dont know if Son would backup or write up proof on car.

 On the Motorrama vidio it does an 1960 cadillac in the car show but in vidio you cant tell . I am unsure on vidio since it has 1961 model year on cars.  Even the dealer had problems trying find the history of the very expensive cadillac.


   It could be an factory freek to show peaple In 1959 what the car in 1960 will look like or its an fake car .

 Caddy bob is correct about the restore being mickeymouse.

  The dealer said the body was never removed from frame since it built.  I gueess it would take an expert to look at frame and under the body looking at bolts and shims etc to see ifs factory or not . Even then no body for sure can tell if cadillac built it or its homebuilt.  

  One last thing would be trans tunnel in car. In 1959 the trans was bigger since the 59 trans was bigger. In 1960 the trans was replaced with an smaller unit and floorboards was made smaller where peaple would have more footroom.  The dealer said his car has the 1959 trans in car. If Car does have the 1959 trans the factory would have to have installed the 1959 floorpans in car.

  If car is homebuilt you would see the weldmarks etc from replacing the floorpan in car. The floorpans would be an dead give away to see ifs fake or not. The 1959 trans will not fit a 1960 car. But a 1960 trans will fit in 1959 car.  A person could restamp the vin numbers in frame ,motor blocks etc since you can buy or rent restamping tools .  
  Peaple restamp parts all the time I learned in restoring number matching corvettes etc.  It would have experts check the car to see if real or fake.  

 Oh well thats all  I can say dale

Dave #17592

The guy has no proof of anything being legit!     He has pictures from Motoramas and past show cars.  Big deal!    I can post that stuff too.   So what we probably have here is someone who had a basket case 59 convertible and merged it with a better 60 coupe.   Then he had a vision one night about installing a TV like they used to do on show cars back in the day.    I can almost see him laughing and bragging to his buddys: "hey watch me build this thing and get some rich sucker to buy it!"  

Caveat Emptor!  

David

Yann Saunders, 12588

I have been over his last 3-4 ads very carefully and would add these comments to those already made by Dale and others.  

He calls this a "GM design experiment."  He also mentions "The Official Harley Earl Website fully sponsored by the Earl Family Archives." IMO, this is an attempt to give some credence to his story and his "could be" theories. I too have spoken and corresponded at length with Earls grandson; I can safely say that Richard has no more information than I do about this alleged "GM design experiment". The Motorama car with the B&W TV was the "Westchester"; the press release for it reads :  "Providing the utmost in passenger comfort and luxury, functional conveniences such as a telephone, a tape recorder and a wide-angle 14-inch television set, believed to be the first such practical installation of its kind, are combined in a built-in unit located in the rear of the front seat."  

That car has got nothing to do with the 59/60 for sale on eBay. If the latter were a car of Earls or of any of his "pupils" (including Bill Mitchell, Chuck Jordan and Dave Holls) we would certainly have heard of it by now.  I have been researching the fifties Cadillacs (inter alia) for over 45 years and have had personal contacts with Chuck and with the late Dave Holls.  I have been through Harlowe Curtices personal archives at the Styling Studio with a fine-tooth comb; there I saw and photographed hundreds of photos of pre-production prototypes ...but NEVER this so-called "GM Design Experiment".

He says, "Here is a photograph of the Cadillac design studio which was taken back in 1959."  So far as I recall that pic is from GMs "Annual Report" for 1959, published in 1960; it is of no suprise, therefore, that a 1960 model is featured in the photo. He adds, "The trim tag on this car shows a Paint Code of 12, which is white."  Clearly the original car was a 59 convertible and it was painted white. There is NO alleged "paint color mystery." The reference to Brenton Blue by the seller reflects his ignorance of Cadillac paint and trim codes. He has taken the trim color ref. # and assumed it was the body paint color. This aspect of his "tale" has been discussed with him at length by an Aussie enthusiast and by me. He does admit (later), "The plain and simple truth is....we just dont know but because the factory build sheet indicates this car was born in code 12 (white) ...we think white was the original color (in fact, he "thinks" that only because we TOLD him so!)

He asserts: "I restored the car to perfection" (?)  See Bob Millians comments is this respect! Take a close look also at the trunk area ...that is supposed to be restored to perfection. John "O" who is said to have done the interior and top certainly did a poor job of restoring it "to perfection"; the seat patterns are wrong, whether for the 1959 OR the 1960 Cadillac convertibles. Seller gives special thanks to "Dr. Sokal for his historical input and advice."  I wonder who Dr. Sokal is and what is his Cadillac expertise?

Finally, notice the "funny" bidding?  There was a $160,000.00 bid on Aug 11, then another on Aug. 16 of $159,999,99.  Sorry, but eBay doesnt work like that; to better a bid of $160,000.00  would probably take at least $161,000.00.  I dont believe in ANY of the listed "Private Bids".  But thats me, always very skeptical!

Its certainly a "one of a kind special car...." but IMHO it aint worth any more than any regular Series 62 convertible from 1959 or 1960 i9n similar condition. Im guessing it wont sell this time. Well see it again in a month or two.

Bob Hoffmann CLC #96

We all know that this is a hoax. Just another atempt to embellish a car. There was NO reason for Cadillac to do this. They already had mocked up the 60 models by that time. They were getting ready to do the model changeover on the production line in July or August of 1959. All the planning was done months or years ago. Lets give it up. Bob

Joe Abernathy #17524

Isnt it convenient that the bidders IDs are kept private in all his sales?  Wonder who is bidding the car up, and still not meeting the reserve???...Hmmmm...

It does make it appear that there is some interest in the car so maybe you could show a potential buyer that you turned down an offer for 160-170k$.

I flew to Fla. to check out a 55 Cad conv. he had listed a while back.  I was treated very rudely.  After meeting him (Marv aka luvdg) and seeing his operation would never buy ANYTHING from him!

Porter 21919

Just like most all of LVDGs overpriced cars. Doctored up,incorrect,misrepresented, etc. etc. Of course he always gives you his nice guy song and dance routine on eBay. Low mieage, rare, expensive paint job, drives like a dream, maybe even a famous former owner, etc.

Must be good money selling cars with proper marketing, LVDG is a PT Barnum protege.

Dave #17592

The real crime is that Ebay makes it virtually impossible to contact them about bad sellers or buyers for that matter.   There is no phone number listed and you must spend an hour searching for a generic webform to fill out, just to get an automated reply.  

  Why in the world would they allow a seller to hide feedback?   Especially automobiles!    Everything about Ebay is in one persons best interest.  THEIRS!

 Dont get me wrong,  I do buy and sell on Ebay.  It can be a wonderful thing if not abused.    Too bad unsuspecting buyers give this turkey their hard earned money.   Hopefully savy buyers will check here first.  :)

    Imagine that the guy had the nerve to tell Yann that he doesnt know sh*t about Cadillacs!     Unbelievable!

David

Yann Saunders, 12588

I questioned the authenticity of the seat pattern.  Here is his reply :

"Sorry, but you are incorrect. These are the EXACT seats, exact pattern, used in a 1959 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible and they are 100percent real Leather."

Nuff said !

Johnny

I really dont see the crime here.  No one is being forced to deal with this seller.  Potential buyers are doing so at their own free will.  If they choose to do business with this individual and his attitude, thats their problem.  If someone has $100,000+ to shell out for a "hoax", thats on them. Personally I dont see it happening.  I would think that someone that has that much  discretionary money, would be wise enough to research purchases such as this.  The fact that he has had this car up for bid before, shows me he isnt fooling anyone.

Dave #17592

Johnny,    

   No, it is not a "legal" crime in that respect.  More of a crime against humanity.  That is what I was implying.   This guy is no better that those guys who overcharge for bottled water to hurricane victoms who just lost everything.   Taking advantage of people is a moral crime.    Unfortunately only punishable at the Pearly Gates.

Johnny

Quote from: Dave  #17592Johnny,    

   No, it is not a "legal" crime in that respect.  More of a crime against humanity.  That is what I was implying.   This guy is no better that those guys who overcharge for bottled water to hurricane victoms who just lost everything.   Taking advantage of people is a moral crime.    Unfortunately only punishable at the Pearly Gates.

I dont see the crime with this sale of this car.  No one is putting a gun to anyones back to buy this car.  Granted the seller is a slick snakeoil salesman, but the buyer of this car is no more taken advantage of then the millions of people that go to Casinos.

Dave Smith #17592

Now that I disagree with.   If you go to a casino you know there is a good chance that you are walking home with empty pockets.  

Buying a Picasso painting and bringing it home to find out it is a fake, now that is a crime.  The seller told you it was the real deal.    Buying this Caddy as an investment because the seller claims it is the real deal is just as bad.

If you buy that Caddy because you believe the seller and you are going to get Scr*wed for sure 100percent.   Go to a casino and there is a chance you can win.   A slim one granted, but a chance.

Porter 21919

LVDG misrepresents his cars with outrageous fictious claims, Im sure it is not just Cadillacs. Of course he is well scrutinized by the forum here.

I dont condone dishonesty and nobody should. Not that selling used cars has ever been an honest profession.

If anyone is silly enough to get taken by him that is their problem.

Unfortunately I have gotten to know a few club members that were taken by unscroupulous car dealers, I warned one of them to not buy the car sight unseen, it was a disaster, another one got shysted by LVDG, he is a shyster, end of discussion.

A fool and his money are soon be parted. eBay attracts suckers like moths to a flame when it comes to cars, buying sight unseen, give me a break. Having said that I have purchased two shop manuals and some great parts cheap.

Porter