Brakes on a 41

[Morgan Murphy, No. 17409]

I just bought a new 41 Cad. Series 62.  Im amazed by the car and have found a new love in 1941.  The torque and the handling are superb.  I was impressed by how easily it drove and stopped.

Unfortunately, after a few trips around the block, my brake pedal has sunk to the floor.  Ive not yet puchased the shop and authenticity manual (will be making those purchases on Monday).  In the meantime, I found the brake fluid resevoir--it was dry, so I filled it with (and yes, this may have been stupid) DOT 3 brake fluid.  Needless to say, the pedal still sinks to the floor.  

Oops.  Any advice?

Morgan

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Gday Morgan,

Congratulations on your purchase.

Have you actually bled the system after re-filling the M/C.

Sounds like there is either air in the system, or you may have blown a wheel cylinder, or have a ballooning flexible hose.

Might necessitate removing each wheel and brake drum to inspect.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

[Bill Ingler CLC 7799]

Hi Morgan- Congratulations on your purchase of a 41. It is fun car to drive. It sounds like you have air in the brake system caused by the fact the master brake cylinder was allowed to go dry.I would suspect a leak someplace either in the master, the lines or the wheel cylinders which caused the master to run dry. Since this is a new car to you, I would first look for any obvious leaks that have caused that master cylinder to go dry. Any signs of a leak of brake fluid around the ends of the master cylinder, leaks in the wheel cylinders which whould show up either from leaking around the bottom of the brake drum or a bad pull of the car either left or right as you apply the barkes. With any new car I buy, I always pull the drums and look for any leaks in the wheel cylinders. If you can`t find any leaks in the system then you need to bleed the air from the whole system.If the air is out of the system and the master cylinder itself is OK, then you should have a firm pedal that does not go to the floor. If you push down on the pedal and keep a firm pressure on that pedal and if you feel that pedal slowly going to the floor, then you still have air in the system. As far as the Dot 3 fluid, I would continue to use Dot 3 since I would make the assumtion that type was probably what was in the system to start. By the time you get all the air out you probably have flushed out most of the old fluid that was in the system when you started bleeding the brakes.

[Doug Houston]

One little thing to look for also is the brake line from the master cylinder to the rear brake hose connection. They have a nasty habit of developing pinholes and draining the system. This happened on my 38-60 Special whilst on the way to the South Bend Grand national. The car was a faithful runner for 44 years of my ownership, and the brake line caused me to miss the meet. I parked it with friends, got a rental car, and had it fixed on the way home.

The moral of this is: have new lines made for all cars. Theyll go sooner or later. Theres a place just north of Detroit that makes stainless lines, and Im gonna have new ones made for the rest of my cars. I have four 41s, and that will be my start.

The other thing that I think Bill didnt cover is that the rubber flex lines become smaller in inside diameter with age. On the Cadillacs that we have, about an inch of pedal, and you should be wrapped around the steering wheel. Since Ive rebuilt the brakes on the 38 several times in the 45 years Ive owned it, this time, itll get rebuilds on wheel and master cylinders,and new flex hoses. I also think that it will have silicone fluid. The big beef with glycol fluids is their tendency to absorb water.

Looks like you have gotten a good car and with a few details ironed out, youll find that its really a modern car to go anywhere in. Ive put a lot of miles on mine, and have had some very memorable trips in them. The only 41 I have with a manual transmission is the 4 door convertible. It has almost incredible performance that surprises quite a few people. The other ones have postwar Hydra-Matics, and they too, are no slouches.

Ultimately, Ill also have stainless exhaust systems on all of my cars. Every spring, Im plagued with a dangling tailpipe on something, and fixing the system. It happens on a 41 oldsmobile I have, and right now, theres a stainless system awaiting installation on it. Its just something else to not need work each year.

[Morgan Murphy, No. 17409]

Wow, thank you for all the advice.  I am most grateful, and you both are probably right.  The resevoir was bone dry, so Im guessing there is air in the lines, hence the troubled pedal.  And since this car has sat since 1964 (more or less), Im also guessing that one or all of the wheel cylinders are leaking.  

From your advice, it sounds as if the wisest thing to do would be to go ahead and replace all the wheel cylinders, brake lines, and overhaul the brakes while Im at it.  I looked at Kanters kit.  Is the company you mentiond that sells metal brake lines the same one that is posting these metal brake line kits (for $25) on eBay?  Heres the address:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Complete-Metal-brake-line-kit-for-Cadillac-1941-to-1966_W0QQitemZ4585558444QQcategoryZ34199QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Complete-Metal-brake-line-kit-for-Cadillac-1941-to-1966_W0QQitemZ458555844

To be honest, I purchased this 41 in part because I love the year and also because Im determined to learn more about the mechanicals of Cadillacs.  I read Walts 8-part series on rebuilding a 41 engine in the Self Starter, and feel that the year has enough club support for me to attempt to keep up my car mechanically.  The brake job will be my first challenge.  Whats the worst than can happen?  (Dont answer that).

[Porter 21919]

Morgan,

The brake fluid has to be going somewhere, I was going to tell you either you have a brake line or wheel cylinder leaking but waited to let the 40s experts reply to your question. Only pulling the drum will reveal any leakage of wheel cylinder brake fluid.

Ive never had a faulty master cylinder so I cant comment on what those symptoms would be,if the rest of the brake system was up to snuff with no leaks the master cylinder would be the problem.  

I just did a complete brake job on my 67 CDV, the car sat for five years, all the wheel cylinders were leaking and the brakes pulled, the RF was locking up, the shoes were soaked with brake fluid. The shop manual made my first drum brake job a piece of cake, whoever did the brakes last was an idiot, there was some incorrect work done upon reassembly.

I replaced the front hoses too, they were all cracked. For $ 200 I got wheel cylinder rebuild kits, the hone tool, new spring kits, brake shoes, front brake hoses and front grease seals.

I sandblasted the drums and painted them black, scuffed the drum brake shoe surface clean with some emory cloth, all the brake shoes need is to be seated in with some driving.

Porter

[Bob Schuman, CLC#254]

You have received some good advice, and for safety the whole brake system must be overhauled as described. One thing you need to know is that a special puller is necessary for removing the rear brake drums without damage. After removing the wheel and the large axle nut, the puller to use is a three arm type that bolts to three of the wheel lugs and a center screw that presses on the end of the axle. Many auto supply stores will rent the puller, and it may take a lot of slugging on the yoke on the center screw to pop the drum loose. Do not try to use other types of tools, you will probably damage the drum.

[Doug Houston]

That thing on eBay is a joke. All the guy is selling is a bunch of standard Bundyflex tubing sections that you can buy at any parts store. Youd have to match up sections of the tubing with couplings  and form the tubing to make up the line you need.

The place Im thinking about is in either Roseville or Fraser, Michigan. Ill have to get their name. Im going to get the lines off of the car and have them duplicated in stainless. Heck, I can make Bundyflex lines as easy as anyone, and they work O.K., but Id rather have the job done by a professional tubing house. And I love the idea of stainless under the car, anyway.

Nice thing is that Ill need only one piece of the tubing for three of the 41 Cadillacs, cause three are series 62. It may be the same for the 60S too, but Ill have to check.

[morgan Murphy, No. 17409]

Thats what I suspected.  It seems all those extra joints would be weak points in the system.  Im with you that stainless under the car would put my mind at ease.  Im jealous of your 4 (four!) 41s.  Mine is a Series 62 2-door conv. and Im already plotting a Sixty Special.  I still cant get over how well they drive!

[baxter culver #17184]

One more thought.  If you are going to replace/restore the entire brake system (including the lines), I would give some thought and research to fitting a dual master cylinder to the car.  I have seen some of these advertised on the net for other applications and one might be available for your 41.  It would be invisible unless a judge crawled under your car.  It would give you the safety of a split system--separate systems for front and rear brakes.  Just a thought.

[Bill Ingler CLC 7799]

Hi Morgan- If you are doing your whole brake system and since you will be pulling your rear drums to get to the rear brake shoes, you might want to consider pulling the rear axles and looking at the axle bearings. These are sealed bearings and if original then you need to press on new sealed axle bearings. I believe the original bearings were New Departure. I have been on 2 old car tours were rear bearings have gone out from lack of lubricant and then become so hot in one case it actually started a fire which in turn got ito the rear quarter of the car. The fire was put out without too much damage but old original axle bearings on Cadillacs are bad news. If you pull the axles make sure you install new axle seals.Leaking differential grease on your new brake shoes might cause one to cry. Have fun working on a great car.

[Jeff Maltby 4194]

Great suggestion Bill. I replaced my oem 49 axle bearings along with the oem leather axle seals still intact, on my 49 coupe when redoing my complete brake system/pinion seal etc few years back. I had the Napa auto machine shop save the axle bearings just to have a look.

The grease was still there but in solid pieces.

[Virgil Perkins #19943]

Morgan, I received the same excellent advice from some of the same people when I started on my 6019SF three years ago and have had very favorable results. I purchased stainless tubing from Inline Tube a couple years ago for $183.70. It was pre bent and went on without a problem. I used DOT 5 and and have very good brakes, plus pretty lines (pardon the pun). Inline is in Michigan, (800) 385-9452. Also on line at Inlinetube.com. I also have used DOT 5 in my 55 Chevy since converting over in 1989 and have enjoyed the same excellent ressults. Enjoy the rebuid and the end result, driving it! VP

[Morgan Murphy, No. 17409]

That sounds like a logical and prudent thing to do.  Where should I begin research on exactly how to replace the axel bearings?  Also, does anyone have a good source for the stainless steel brake lines?  I live in Birmingham, AL if that makes any difference.

[Baxter Culver#17184]

Prior to driving my 39 60Special to last years Driving Tour in western Colorado, I purchased and installed a set of rear axle bearings from Old Car Bearing (Hemmings).  Good thing I did.  The originals were junk!  Replaced the seals too.  But then, I had found the same condition on the front bearings when I checked them the year or so before.  I guess Cadillac never thought the wheel bearings would still be serviceable after 60+ years.  For safety sake, brakes, then wheel bearing--then worry about the hole in the muffler or the cranky carburetor.  If it wont stop or the wheels wont turn and not fall off, nothing else matters!

[Bill Ingler CLC 7799]

Hi Morgan- Replacing the axle bearings requires you to pull the axle with bearing from the rear axle housing. Look at the bottom of the exploded view on the attachment and it will give you a good look of how the parts are assembled. Once you have the drum off and shoes removed from the backing plate, remove the 4 bolts holding the backing plate to the axle housing, remove the backing plate and then pull the axle with bearing straight out from the housing. You will then see the oil seal in the housing.Remove the seal. You might need a seal extractor as the seal is forced in the housing with a seal driver. Take the axle to a machine shop and have them press off the old bearing and press on the new bearing to exactly the same place as the old bearing.Do not let anybody attempt to drive off the old bearing with a hammer and punch as they probable will ding up the area on the axle where the seal rides causing a rough area on the axle and inturn a leak. Install a new seal using a driver making sure you start the seal evenly in the axle housing opening. Then put everything back in reverse order. Make sure you torque the axle nut to 285-315. This value is important otherwise you might hear a clunk in the rear everytime you shift. The drum twisting against the axle key. I buy most of my parts from Coopers in CA 818-567-4140. A nice person who will help you. Have fun with your 41

http://members.aol.com/inglerfly/Barkejpg TARGET=_blank>http://members.aol.com/inglerfly/Barkejpg

[Morgan Murphy, #17409]

Do I have to take the frame out from under the car to properly replace the brake lines with stainless?  From inlinetubes.com, it looks to be a a process that isnt for the faint of heart!

[Jeff Hansen #4225]

Morgan,

Ive done this job on my 42 with the body on the frame.  It is not as bad as it appears to be.  The job obviously must be done from underneath for the rear brakes and a combonation of above and below for the front pipes.  Having the front clip off is a plus, but is not mandatory.  The trick is to get the car high enough off the ground to crawl under and work SAFELY.  Remember that while you are doing this, you have NO BRAKES, so if you dont have access to a lift, youll need to chock the wheels and support the weight of the car with suitable jack stands to work SAFELY.

Jeff

[Virgil Perkins]

Morgan, I replaced all my lines with pre bent stainless lines and in the same routing that the original lines were, using the same mountings & clips.  There was one instance of some minor re-bending but it was easy. My car was up on jack stands (4 in front and 4 in back, as I am super cautious when under two tons of iron). The pre bent lines are not hard to install, just have to be careful when you start any of the connections, not to cross thread. I  used new wheel cylinders and rebuilt my master cylinder. I did purchase new t-junction for the front lines. Also replaced all three rubber hoses. Then used DOT 5 fluid and it has fine brakes. Hope this helps, VP