Barrett-Jackson reply to 59/60 Motorama Show car

[Paul]

I sent an email to Barrett-Jackson, referring them to the Cadillac La Salle website forum, with all the concern and doubts about the so-called 1959 / 1960 Motorama Show Car.

All due credit to Barrett-Jacksons ethical response, who it seems, forced the seller to finally come-clean and admit the car is a re-body...not what the seller claimed on his ebay description....

Below is the Barrett-Jackson reply:

Paul


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Paul, thanks again for your message and concern about clarity and accuracy of the cars offered for sale at the Barrett-Jackson auction.

I have discussed the issue with the owner of the car and we have mutually agreed to add the word (Recreation) to the title of the car.   This clearly relates to what the car is today.   It is not a real car and without question is a rebody.

This is exactly what we do for valuable cars without original documentation.

Thank you again for bringing this to our attention.
 
Dave Dubie,
Showroom Sales Manager
Barrett-Jackson Auction Company

 

[dale jackson]

 Wow
 

  We at cadillac forum researched and totely debunked this car finnly. I know I put in days work trying firgure out in my spare time. Thanks to yann saunders and Robert millium, Joe on him seeing it built , And to all helped at this cadilac club forum with replys and dave going after barret jackson to tell the world this car is an rebody or car built fram parts.

 I knew something wrong when marv on phone at ebay auction trying con me out over my million dollers I dont have. He at good cars  sales and tells storys and whatever the maybe buyer wants to here. I know I am used car dealer and sales car to peaple. marv is one good car sales guy and he make peaple believe anything and get peaple to think its true.

 I did learn from something from marv. He will try avoid answers to quastions and change the subject. His stunt with moterrama car did get lots attetion for cars on lot maybe sold lots more car from his car. You knows cars many he sold since his car caught the eye of peaple in hemming ebay etc.

 I done same thing on my car lot in houston. I bought an 1957 chevy once and it created lots walk in traffic and it was eye candy to catch the eye of peaple drive by. I got lots walk traffic etc from having my that car on display. It let peaple know I sale cool cars and they tell there freinds etc about my cool cars on my lot. My 1957 chevy did get stolen from my car lot one sunday after it was gone. I had less peaple coming in my car lot in houston after it gone. I was so upset and wanted to cry over my 1957 chevy. It was blast drive with its 400hp posi 4 speed. It throw in rear seat

 Thats why marv custom built 1959/1960 motorama car was to use as eye candy in ads and promtions on his car lot . It attraction car or bait car draw peaple into the car lot. I dont think he ever wanted sale it since it was his bait car. He makes peaple he was super rare car dealer etc and he use to push peaple in his other cars or get phone call on ads.

 Look at how many peaple got involed and saw ads and called him. He is well known today before he was just another classic car dealer

  We the used car dealers of america will do anything or say thing  to sale you car . If have dress up in cowboy  hat or clown costume or mickey mouse on tv we will do it make an buck.

 We will give away free tv, dvd, player etc , free hot dogs bring the radoi station to make buck.

 Its sad but sometimes stuff works and stuff dont work.

 I give this  to marv he was good and fake car drew in crowds and attraced buyers for his other cars. He is good at that. It was his eye cady to promote clasic cars sales. It worked. I cant blame him . I did same with my 1957 chevy but I never lied etc and said My 1957  chevy was an one kind super car factory freek etc ,tv car etc.

 Just like Pt barum said there is sucker born each secord.

 One last thing we car dealers have be showmen just pt barum come up cool promtions to attract buyers for cars.

 I spending 1500 per monlth for promotions ads, etc for my lot . I even I bought 1000 worth dvd/ vcr combos to give away to car buyers. The peaple at radoi shack .  he Thought I joking when I told I would every dvd player in stock. It fliped the sales guy out etc. He could  not beilve  it and thinking was your crasey or whatever.

  Its all gimicks and being an showman in car sales.

  Dale jackson .

 Ps . One last thing his stunt or bait car may have helped sale tons of his other overpriced classic cars by having using. He not first or will ever be last guy who pulled his stunt before.

[Joseph Meneghin]

Outstanding job Paul.  I have no doubt you have prevented someone from paying alot more for this car than its worth.  My only question at this point, since the seller came clean, does this car have the vin tag of a 60 body and the serial # of a 59 frame.  

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

The VIN and body tag match the 59 base car and (according to "Marv", the vendor) the rivets on the body tag are original and have not been tampered with. I believe the plastic ID tag on the driver door jamb also matches the 59 VIN

Questions for the ground-up restorers: (1) could a 59 body "shell" be separated from the remainder of the car (chassis, engine, etc.) without disturbing/affecting the firewall? (2) How difficult an operation would this be if one had the proper lift equipment? (3) Does a 60 body fit a 59 chassis without major modifications?

I believe one of our CLC members saw this car at "Marvs" shop in Florida, a couple of years back, while dash modifications/repairs were under way to accommodate or secure the TV. Does he think the TV was installed at THAT time, or way earlier in the cars history?

Dont miss the sale un Sunday (on TVs Speed channel)

[dale jackson]

 Yann,

 On the cadillac 1959 or 1960 convertible frame. They are same the acording cadillac master parts book. The brakes etc are not same on the chassis. My cadillac master Parts book is the book the dealers used on selling replacement parts.

 On firewall the are replaced since they welded to shell. My freind paid an bodyshop 385 dollers to replace an firewall on 1957 chevrolet they cut holes or screwed it up etc for some reason.

 On data plates mounted on firewall. They make repro rivets etc for them. They can drilled out and remounted etc no problem.

 Marv could did   it an person would never know etc.
 
  My theory on his car is they took an  rusted out 1959 convertible and used an 1960 convertible body shell or coupe and built that car.

 Or they could have bought an 1960 cadillac convertible and cut the front frame section where vin numbers are stamped and replaced using the 1959 cadillac numbers data pate etc.

  If was going inspect his in person. I look for weld marks etc on frame grind marks, I look under carpet etc for welds, frame mount sims etc where frame mounts on car.

  On the 1959 body parts and 1960 body . The doors are same, hood, core support , hood, decklid are the same, firewall, floor pans etc. Cadillac book said drill holes for emblems or trim parts mounted on those parts.

 The parts that are not same is trans tunnel in floor pans. The 1959 transmsion was an wider unit and the 1960 transmsion is smaller. It was new selling point in 1960 since they would have feet room. You can install an 1960 transmsion in an 1959 cadillac but you cant install an 1959 trasmsion in 1960.

 1959 the front fenders  and rear quaters have not the same as 1960.

 On 1959 cadillac service book from cadillac it same the as 1960 for tech info. But in 1960 the added an smaller book to the 1960 car to add the new stuff they changed. The new book explains the new service updates in 1960 compared to 1959.

  Reason I learned all this was I going buy an 1959 cadillac parts car to help me restore my 1960 eldo.

 If buy the master parts book that dealer used for replacement parts. You can learn so much etc and part numbers and what parts will work and not will work. I paid maybe 100 bucks for my book on ebay. I needed in buying and selling parts I need.

  One last thing yann. In the Chevrolet mussle car or corvette restore . In those cars . In factory restore on those cars. They looked dated code engine blocks etc and parts. It makes there car worth more if car has matching numbers etc.

  You can buy rivets repro for data plates, They also rent out block stamping tools. You can grind the wrong serial number or vin number from frames, engine blocks etc and restamp the numbers that go to your car on parts.

 Example If blew your engine from cadillac in say an 1959 or 1960 cadillac . If bought an brand new replacement engine cadillac in 1964 or whatever. Cadillac would restamp your vin number in the replacement engine for your car to keep it matching For you car. In 1964 an replacement engine cost 645 from cadillac for an 1959 or 1960 cadillac.

  If bought say an 1960 or 1959 cadillac convertible frame they would maybe stamp your numbers if needed to buy an replacement chassis if bought it from gm dealer.


 I know its very easy build car from parts or change numbers etc no problem. Its sad car thiefs or crooks etc been doing it years to hide fact there parts are stolen or peaple trying sale fake mussle cars or cars with wrong engine etc .

   Example You see what I talking about in ebay car. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Impala-1959-Chevrolet-Impala-Convertible_W0QQitemZ4603581528QQcategoryZ6169QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem TARGET=_blank>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Impala-1959-Chevrolet-Impala-Convertible_W0QQitemZ4603581528QQca  

  Yann if look at 1959 chevy convertible. It an factory big block thats worth maybe 50000 to 60000. It sold for 3000 cash. Its scrap metal if look at car. The buyer who bought car going my another 1959 chevy and take two cars etc and rebuild it changing serial numbers etc and send rest of car to scrap metal guy. He going get an title from an state where they lax title laws build this car and using vin numbers, data plates, block numbers. He can buy say an an real nice restored small block convertible for maybe 35000 and swap numbers etc and and have an car worth 50 to 60k easy or more.

 Yann peaple been doing stuff like it for years.


  On my 1960 eldo restore. Last year I almost bought another factory black red intior restored serois 62 cadillac for 35000. It was nice and spent thousands restoring. I was thinking about buying car  swaping chassis , engine, data plates etc using my 1960 eldo convertible. Taking off serois 62 trim. Using my eldo body shell as template to drill factory holes etc to build me an 1960 eldo.  Convert his car etc to an fully restored 1960 eldo convertible using my eldo parts and frame number etc. I could rebuilt my 1960 is an maybe two monlths or less becides searching for parts and restoing its parts etc. It would have been cheap way to build full frame off restored car with all my numbers correct to my 1960 eldo.  The corect way to restore my car will take years etc. That way would fast and cheaper.

  You see how an person  could an fake car, cloan another or custom rebody or whatever. It can be done and still being done each day.

  There are tricks to learn to prevent from being ripped off or an victiom. You have inpsect cars for correct convertible frames, look for repro rivets, welding in car etc , Look at frames sims , bracing etc. To see if they have restamped engines or whatever. Always ask for factory paperwork, documents etc .

 In chevy car world. They can make repro protecto plates , data plates, vins tags etc etc. It has got to point any thing can faked or whatever.

 Example you saw what marv did on factory all paperwork and stuff written up from phoney lawyers , peaple saying the car there etc. When car show was not there in 1959 or whatever.

 Yann you helped me figure out was an fake from looking at your cadillac website and finding the last motorrama show was in 1958 and is car was not built intill janary of 1959. You site helped reaserch that car and find it fake etc. I think I looked old newspapers etc from  1958 etc   in new york. Then we found out that cadillac dealership was not even open at that time from another member.

 I am not expert but we figured it out. I still wish I knew where his tv parts from car come from. I guess we never know where those tv parts parts etc come from. I guess we never know.

 One last thing I think I know why marv did was. It was an bait car get peaple buy his cars etc from car lot. It was promtional thing to get ads or walkin traffic. I dont he wanted sale car and the auction on ebay riged big time. He caught my eye big time. Since I wanted see if was an real car. I just love those 1959 or 1960 cadillac with an passions just you love all old cadillacs out there.

 His 1959/1960 car or whatever it is an truly an strange creation with the tv set there. I guess these days an person an build an make beilve or fastary car.

 Have fun dale jackson

[denise 20352]

  What time is it showing?

[Mike#19861]

 Good job, Paul! More people like you would be a asset to us all!

 Also kudos to BJ for making the guy come clean. Did he really think that he would be able to get that car across the block with all the controversy created here?

 As Dale pointed out, this sort of thing has been going on for many years. Engine numbers have been routinely ground off and restamped. VIN tags can be swapped in convincing manner. Originally, it started out with the theft of high end cars. VINS were taken from wrecked cars that were bought at auction, and reapplied to stolen cars and sold as repaired cars. It has only more recently surfaced within the collector market. Not for stolen cars, but to make lesser cars appear to be what they are not. Like what he illustrated with the 59 Impala, and what would have most likely happened with the 59 Eldo that appeared on E-Bay some time back.

 These jobs can be so convincing that we really have to be aware of wht we are buying. Go beyond the numbers and loof for signs of modification under carpets, inside trunks and so on. You really have to know that sort of car in which you intend to purchase.

 In the buying orgy at these auctions, often this common sense goes out the window, and fraudulant cars can be bid to record prices, only to leave them holding the bag with a worthless piece. I suppose that is what this clown was hoping to accomplish.

 Mike

[Yann Saunders, 12588]

I believe it goes on the block on Sunday.  Cant wait!

[Yann Saunders]

Thanks for the insight, Dale.  I can tell from all your posts on the message board that you have the technical know-how (as well as the factory documentation) to be able to distinguish between a "real" and a "fake" 1959-60 Cadillac model. I guess youve probably taken a few of these cars apart.  

BJ should fly you out to Scottsdale before Sunday to go over this "mystery" car, to be able to present potential buyers with the FACTS, not the fiction.

I have supplied to BJ and to SpeedTV [who are covering the event with great fanfare] as many of the FACTS as I have been able to glean about this car since it first appeared on eBay in March, 2005, as the "1959/1960 Motorama car". Ive asked them to take great car in describing the car, when it goes on the block, taking into account all the known FACTS about it and all the "untruths" surrounding it.

Nevertheless, and considering the prices fetched by some of the "lesser" cars that were auctioned by BJ, yesterday, I can see this one easily topping the $100K mark.  And thats all that matters to "Marv".

[Richard Goulden]

Well done all you guys. Of course I totally believed it, when I first read about it, I say FIRST read the ad.
 One thing I could never understand though, was if it was the real deal, why did it have an " ordinary build sheet". I mean how could it have come done the line with all the other cars when it was different to all the rest . I could understand if it had some special order, or special build sheet.
I would say that this has done REAL damage to the reputation of the seller, and something positive for the auction guys, and all the Cadillac detectives.
I was told the other day there are approx 1500 59 Eldorado Biarritzs in the world today, yet only 1320 were ever built.
Again, well done you guys.
Richard

[Joe Abernathy #17524]

Yann,

You are correct.  I was there in Fla to see about another Cadillac when I was shown the 59-60 "Motorama" car.  It is my impression that the dash was being modified at that time to accept the TV.  Marv gave me the whole story about the car but as I questioned him about it he suddenly had to go back to his office.  He basically told me that if I was ready to write him a check for anthying I could find him there.

Im anxious to see what happens.