electrical problem on my 60 special please help

[nasser]

Hi everyone:
  my 1939 60 special came from the paint shop and the upholstery shop yesterday and has the follwing ellecterical problems:
1- the ameter needle keeps jumping when engine is idling, and when I hit the gas pedal it jumps to C (charge) on the ameter and stays there until engine return to Idle. After stoping the engine the needle continue the jumping (fluctuation) for a minute before it stops completely. The Q, is this normal? is my generator charging? what do I need to correct?
2- the horn sounds when I connect the battery, so I figured that the issue at the horne button, so I removed it and everything seem OK, spring, contact, etc. what I couldnt figuer is what should be insulated under the horn button to control the horn?

  These 2 questions seem too easy and silly to some of you, but it is challenge to me, car ellecricity is not my forte. Silly Q to avoied silly mistake(s)

  All answers are greatly appreciated. Best regards to all.
Dr. Nasser,

[DJW#13918]

Normal... No. First I think you have a volt meter, not an amp meter. Your neddle should not jump around. Movement is normal depending on the RPMs of the engine. You did not say if you have replaced your wiring harness or not but connections in an old system are always a potential problem. The other thing to check would be the voltage regulator. Why your guage keeps jumping after turning off the key will have to be addressed by someone smarter than me?? The horn should be easy. The horn ring must not make contact with any metal surface unless you want lots of noise. The horn only works when contact is made to ground. I used self adhesive foam strips to isolate my horn ring from the contact surfaces in the steering wheel hub to make it work. Also check your horn relay on the fire wall. If this is a car that has been in storage for many years, the relay may be fryed and frozen in the closed position. Just check one thing at a time starting with the most obvious and work your way to the most complicated. Good luck and let us know how you mkae out.  

[JIM CLC # 15000]

05-25-06
Dr. Nasser, Ampmeter needle jumping (fluctuation) is not normal. Generator working normal? Maybe, maybe not.
Horn, I had a short problem with the horn in my 38 La S. Turns out to be the "brass-ring"around the inner steering shaft. The shaft would flex whenever more then normal pressure was required to to steer the car. I jury-rigged the Brass-Ring with a piece of plastic cut from a soda bottor. Hard to relay in writting just what I did to stop the horn from blowing when I would try to drive the car.
My Suggestion to you is to find an old auto electric shop that knows 6VDC(assumed to be 6VDC) systems and the workers are as old as your car and let them check-out your charging system. The horn you can work-on later.HTH
Good Luck, JIM
P.S. Just re-read your post and saw where you say it is a 39.
Did you know that when the 60 Special came-out in 38, it was suppose to be a La Salle? Cadillac already had a 60 series car at that time.

[nasser]

Dear: DJW and Jim:
  I thank you very much for the insights. DJW, the wiring harness were not replaced, I will look for any fraying of insulations or shorts under the dash. The paint shop did remove the dashboard for wood graining but I dought if they crossed the wires of the gages after re-instalation.
 
  Jim: how to know if a horn relay is bad? the car sat for long time (5-10 years) before it was started it before purchase in Kalamszoo 2 years ago. You cant believe how smooth this flat head runs, awesome driving with the manual gearbox, you have very nice feeling with the engine purring .... very enjoyable compared to the hydramatic I had with my 1946 cad. sorry for deturing, I couldnt understand your "steering shaft"-bottle insulation, could you be more explanatory? What I have problem with seems to go with what you are saying, so more details would help greatly. You see, the end of the wire for the horn under the button has a metal head, when this metal head touches the sourrounding metal, the horn sound. Is this the correct case? if this metal head has to be insulated, how the horn would sound after that?
  I am consulting several books and manuals that I have here, but not great help coming from these. So, I am relying on you guys for this electric delima. I am appreciating what I got from you so far, please keep going. best regards.

Dr. Nasser,

[nasser]

Hi Jim:
  Glad that they didnt call it La Salle, this 60 Spechial is great, I bought it through ebay from a musioum in Kalamazoo MI and shipped it all the way here in Saudi Arabia (I use to live in southern CA) and sent it for "restoration" to a good local shop it cost me for the paint and some rust repairs and upholstory $5900.00, isnt that cheap. The work is not as I would do it my self, but I would say above an average merican shop would do.
  I hope that by saying this would not deture you from keeping your advice, but I had to say it and you would know it, just incase you or other members have some stands (or reservations)in this regards. I hope not, as we are in a hoby that carry great meaning and noble cause.
  I am also restoring (by my self) a 1947 cadillac conv. frame off and total (I mean total) disassembly and alot of floor rust repairs and I got great help from several members of this forum. I could send pix to any one who wants. Best rgards.

Dr. Nasser,

[Bill Ingler #7799]

Hi Dr Nasser- It could be a grounding problem in the charging circuit causing the needle to flucuate. Check to make sure that the regulator is securely mounted on the firewall, metal to metal.If the firewall was recently painted then the new paint around the mounting holes could be causing a poor ground.Check the grounding cable from the battery to the frame, again making sure there is good ground with no corrosion.Also check the connections on the generator to make sure they are secure with no corrosion.If you have a battery disconnect switch in the circuit,bypass the switch temporarily and see if your needle calms down. Sometimes this switch will develop corroison.Your horn(excuse the pun) sounds like a grounding problem. I would take off the horn button and horn ring. The wire that comes up the inside of the steering tube is nothing more than a grounding wire. Ground this wire and the horn blows. The end of the wire you see should have a brass contact button.Then around that is a brass grounding ring, then around the brass grounding ring should be an insulator material to keep the brass grounding ring away from making contact with the inside of the steering tube.The majority of the time this insulator material is missing or what is left is cracked and allowing a ground either all the time or intermitent as you turn the wheel the horn blows.I have fashioned on my 41 & 47 a small rubber ring to fit around the brass grounding ring to serve as an insulator. If this ring is properly insulated and you put power to the car, the horn should not blow. If the horns don`t blow and to test your horn cicuit,  momentarly touch a jumper wire fron the brass contact button to a metal part of the steering wheel, the horn should blow. Also clean the area on the firewall under the horn relay the same as you would do under the regulator.If you get a chance, please send me a picture of the 47. It has been some time since you sent the last picture.  Thanks

[Bill Gauch]

I have two thoughts about your Ammeter (Ampmeter). You say they took out the dash. Is it possible that they re-hooked up the ammeter on the wrong? They may have thought it was a Volt meter. If they hooked the hot (negative) wire up from the battery, and then grounded (positive) the other side to the body or chassis, the ammeter will act all sorts of screwwy. Actually, I wouldnt be supprised if you burned something out or killed the battery by hooking it up that way. Few people realize that ammeters read the ammps being drawn through the ammeter. You should have the hot wire off the battery in one side of the ammeter, and then out into the rest of the car from there. Unfortunately, electrical problems are the hardest problems to fix. Fortuantely, it is a 39, therefore, the entire wiring diagram for the car can fit on a page.

As for the horn relay being questionable... my first though was that it may be bad, but at second thought, I dont think so. A relay is a electro-magnetically operated switch. When you apply power through a small coil, it creates a magnet, which pulls a small tab (switch) into a contact. If you disconnect the horn button and the horn stops. It would imply that the relay is good (or coincidentally burned out at the exact moment of disconnection). Relays are fairly simple devices. Typically, you have a line in from the main power source, a line out to the device, and a switch line. Sometimes, the relay is grounded through a screw and somtimes you have a seperate ground wire. If you apply a hot wire (negative) to the switch line, the horn should sound. When you remove it, the horn should stop.

As I type this, I am thinking more and more that the upholstry shop screwed up your underdash wiring when they reconnected it. You may have to bite the bullet and trace each one according to an accurate wiring diagram.

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Dr. Nasser,

Just make sure that your battery is hooked up properly. It is a POSITIVE + ground 6V electrical system. If that is the problem, you may have to re-polarize your voltage regulator as well.

Best of luck,

Chris Bryant

[Rhino 21150]

1939 had an ammeter. The jumping indicates a problem with: the generator, the regulator or the wiring. Ammeters work or they dont. They dont get erratic, they stop working.
If the dash was out, take it out again and look carefully at all of the electrical connections. On something this old, if it doesnt look right it probably isnt. You are looking for damaged insulation, loose screws or nuts. Corrosion is a possibility but damage makes more sense. Old wires are fragile and even moving them can break something. The ammeter has NO ground connection, it is connected between the regulator terminal labeled "B" or "BAT" and the negative post on the solenoid. It MAY also have a wire going to the clock or the thermostat relay if the car has those.
If you dont find the problem in the dash, check back here. Well go after the generator and regulator next.

[nasser]

Hi Bill:
Yes the fire wall was newly painted along with the frame under the hood. Now, should the regulator body grounded to the fire wall metal (you said "metal to metal") If so, I am sure the regulator is not grounded as well as the horn relay because of paint. I dont have a wiring digram, so I looked at my 1947 digram to see if the regulator should be grounded. The digram of the 47 doesnt indicate ground, but this is 47 cad digram not 39s. I printed all of your feedback and the other contributers to go back to the car and follow the instructions, this will be done in 2-3 days and Ill let you know of the results and well take it from there.
For my 1947 conv the work stoped as I was involved in a cosultation project with a local big company and got occupied with it for the last 5 months, you got to make some money to fuel these restoration projects, lol. I worked ocasionally on the engine but not finished till now. I am going to resume work in this summer, however. I saw some of your valuable contributions in this forum and I learned alot from that, I thank you and all members very much for the priceless information and insights.
Dr. Nasser,

[nasser]

Hi every one:
Based on your insights, I am going to check all the wiring behind the dash board, without taking it out, to see that all wires are sound and connected rigt. A wiring digram is very valuable here which I dont have, so if any one can mail me a digram for the 1939 60 special I would greatly appreciate it. The digram helps in checking which wire is connected to what base on the color of the tracing and the gage, and what is grounded and what is not.
I printed all of your feedback and the other contributers to go back to the car and follow the instructions, this will be done in 2-3 days and Ill let you know of the results and well take it from there. Thanks to all and happy motoring.
Dr. Nasser,

[baxter culver #17184]

I would advise obtaining a copy of the Shop Manual for 1939-1941 Cadillac LaSalle.  Included in the manual is a wiring diagram along with alot of other technical information.  The manual is available (reprint) from various sources.  Mine came from a company called:  Cranken Hope Publications.  Their phone number is:  (412)459-8853.

Also, if your wiring is original, treat it with utmost respect and gentle hands.  The wires are so fragile, after these many years, that simply moving them can fracture the fabric and insulation.  I recently replaced my loom and was amazed the car hadnt burned to the ground years ago.

[Chris Bryant #19358]

Hi Rhino and Dr. Nasser,

Rhino, you are on the right track. I forgot to tell the Dr. that he needs to polarize the generator as well if the ground has been reversed. Lots of good stuff about wire condition in the messages as well. I still think mis-wrie of the ammeter in combination with possible reversed polarity would give him the problems he describes. (Plus the mistake is an easy one to make). Anyhoot, well see what the final analysis brings.

Cheers,

Chris

[nasser]

Hi everyone:
  I went to my car and survied the wires on the firewall and under the dash and fixed some brittle insulations and made sure that the regulator is grounded throught the screws, good ground to chasis and cleaned few terminals, to no avail. I contacted my mechanic who is the first one to start the car befor the paint was done (a year ago), and asked him if he connected the battery correctly (nigative ground) and he assured me that he did. Then I new that I needed to re-polarize my regulator by a jumper cable between the Gen and Bat terminals on the regulator before starting the engine. Voilla, the ameter calmed down and no sound or jumping of the needle while idling nor while engine stop. Now the needle stays little bit under the midle of the gage while ideling, and when stepping on the gas it will go to charge (C), which I believe is a normal behavior. For you guros, can an incorrect polarity cause such behavior (explained on the begining of the thread) and a ticking sound when the engine stopped and ignition key is at the off position?
  The horn, on the otherhand, was fixed by insulating under the spring of the horn button, your guide in the thread was very valuable. Thanks to all contributers and the people behind this forum. Hapy cadillac-isms.
Dr. Nasser,