News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Tri-Power Removal, Brougham

Started by Morgan Murphy, No. 17409, September 24, 2006, 12:16:57 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Friends:

I need to have the tri-power on my Brougham rebuilt.  Whats the easiest way to get it off the car?  The manual says one-by-one.  Im thinking take them all off at once by removing the intake manifold.  Will that work?  I see them all the time on eBay, rebuilt, on the intake manifold.  I loosened all the bolts today, but did not remove-wanted to get some quality CLC advice first.

My carb guy is a genius and can rebuild them either way.

Morgan

Harry Carlson #16432

Who and where is your carb guy?  My most recent, decent mechanic says I need to rebuild carb #2 (the center one) and he isnt the guy to do it.

My Brougham had a 4 barrel on it when I bought it, with the tri- power in a box.  I had it put back on but Ive never gotten it to run right.  Ever.

The car will stall anytime and may or may not restart.  Im getting a little old to push a 5300 lb. car through a traffic light while the light is green.

Porter

You still have to remove the carburetors to soak them and blow out the air passageways. New mounting gaskets get installed too.

Just simple two barrel carbs, the tripower adjustment is the tricky part.

I rebuild two and four barrel carbs all the time, no big deal, not rocket science. You need a carb core with good throttle bores or they are not rebuildable, need to get bored out and have bushings installed.

Make sure you have the shop manual info.

You only see them on eBay like that because they are selling the intake with the carbs. Removing and cleaning the intake would ( might )be a good idea, they can get a little clogged up with carbon, depending on the age and mileage.

Make sure all your gas line fittings are tight, leakage caused a many a fire, or so I have read.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/ TARGET=_blank>http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/

HTH,

Porter

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Porter:

Thanks for the advice.  I figured they would all have to come off eventually, but I guess Im looking for the lazy way to get them off the car.  Or maybe I should restate that: Im looking for the most efficient way to get them off the car, given my technical limitations.  Besides, if I take them off as one whole piece, its my carb guys responsibility to put them back together!

One last question: should I be able to get the intake off today, what is the best way to protect the engine while the carbs & intake are off the car?

Morgan

Porter

Morgan,

If you sent the car to a qualified mechanic to rebuild the carbs he just remove, rebuild, reinstall and adjust and tune properly.

You have opened up a can of worms, at the very least you will have to retorque the intake bolts in the proper sequence and to the proper torque spec.

The only reason to remove the intake is if there is a leak or to clean it out, ( my 66 intake had major league carbon build up after I removed the 4 bbl Carter to rebuild, I just poked the four the small holes clean and stuffed a rag in the bore holes to prevent debris falling inside ) or for an engine rebuild.

Suit yourself, adjustment will be required after the carbs are installed and make sure those fuel fittings are buttoned up tight with no leaks, sometimes just another 1/16 turn will seal the fitting and stop a leakage of gas.

If you pull the intake you will need new gaskets, at that point you should get it cleaned out real good and painted up nice.

HTH,

Porter

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Porter,

Thanks for the advice.  Re-torquing the bolts should not be a problem--Ive got a brand new, high-quality torque wrench from good ole Griots Garage.  I also have the correct pattern in the shop manual.  

Im trying to do as much on the car as I can reasonably do myself.  Given the rarity of the Brougham I dont trust regular mechanics to treat the car with the respect it deserves.  Also, the high-end guys charge stupid prices that I just am not willing to pay.  

She does run, but since the Brougham has been sitting for 20 years, my goal is to remove and send the following out to specialists for rebuild/repair: the carbs, the gas tank, the fuel pump, both sending units.  Then Im going to tackle the radiator, the water pump, the transmission lines.  Finally, new brakes and a complete tune-up are in order.  Then I get to start fiddling with the air suspension!  (luckily, Ive got compressed air in my garage, per Walts advice).  Reasonable or crazy?  I dont know.  I figure if I get in over my head, I can always hire someone to help.  Yesterday was my first day "on the job" and I got the gas tank and related parts out without incident.

Ive got a parts washer, but I think Im also going to invest in a blast cabinet and an old stove so I can powder coat things like the valve covers and suspension parts.

Best,

Morgan

Porter

Morgan,

Some of us turn wrenches and do our work on our Cadillacs; that is the hobby for us, and some guys hire the pros, I rebuilt my 66 Carter two years ago and have since rebuilt a Motorcraft 2bbl and a Carter 2bbl, there is a reason why the pro will charge you $ 275 to rebuild a Rochester 4 bbl carb like new with re-cadmium plating etc. all properly adjusted to spec., my 66 Carter was a complete mess, totally out of adjustment by the last person that worked on it.

I did a full drum brake job on my 67 CDV last year, only $ 250 for all the parts, bored out the wheel cylinders with the hone tool and installed the rebuild kits, new hoses, shoes, springs, grease seals, etc. pulled and refinished the front backer plates, refinished all the parts, etc. New strut rod bushings and front sway bar bushings and end links, that is my hobby. I have the garage and the tools, albeit Craftsman stuff, the pro Snap On tools will run tens of $ 1,000s,

No garage would have done the brake job like I did for less than a $ grand.

Look at the overhead in the automotive repair business, $ 50 an hour is very fair, you are paying for their knowledge too.

Stroll into the dealer and look at the $ 90 an hour sign for labor, that is factory trained mechanic stuff.

What does a good accountant charge per hour, then go hire a lawyer and look at his hourly fee, you get my drift, one is #s cruncher and you are paying for their knowledge either way.

Porter

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Yes, I guess the $85 an hour my "old car" restoration shop charges is much cheaper than the $450 an hour my lawyer charges.  

I guess the bottom line is I find it fun to do as much of the work as possible myself.  Its a fun puzzle and gratifying to save the $$$.

Of course, the frozen exhaust manifold bolt that holds the ac compressor bracket, which in turn has a bolt on the intake manifold has taken a bit of the fun out of today.  Im going to take a break (no pun intended) and polish the running Cadillac.

John #22631

Morgan,
   Soak that frozen bolt with a product called PB Blaster. It is available in any parts house. Hit it a few times a day for a few days and it will walk right out. But dont "break" it off. It is most likely frozen in the bracket housing itself from electrolysis.

John

John #22631

BTW. It doesnt matter how you remove the manifold/carb unit. Take it off all in one piece, take a few close-up pics of the linkage and how it is set up. If this is not reinstalled as per the letter of the Service Manual, you will play hell in getting it all readjusted. There are many site where you can obtain the proper gaskets for the intake and carbs.

John

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Harry:

My carb guy is named Jerry Hallman.  Jerry worked on the tri-power when it was new.  He rebuilt the tri-power on my 1959 Eldo and also on a previous Brougham I owned (#634).  Im planning on letting him give these a shot--I bought the kits from Mastermind and will give those to him with the carbs.

I should add that Jerry is in partial retirement and doesnt run a very sophisticated shop.  If you live anywhere near Alabama, Id recommend you taking it to him, or at least dropping by to see him yourself.  Or, keep in contact with me and Ill let you know how mine come out.  Ive taken "before" pictures and will be posting them to the web soon.

Morgan

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Thanks for the advice.  I did put some penetrating oil on the bolt.  Ill go get PB Blaster tomorrow.  The bolt is in an awful spot, just absolutely terrible.  The bracket kinda curves up over the bolt so theres no way to get good leverage with a socket wrench or an air wrench.  By taking off a spark plug wire and another manifold bolt forward of the bracket, I am able to get a standard wrench around the stubborn bolt.  But just barely.  I need to get one of those "Busted Knuckle Garage" signs.

Good news is that I got the air conditioning compressor off without incident and am planning on sending that sucker out to Old Air Products tomorrow.

Rhino 21150

Not sure what size bolt or nut you are working on but Craftsman makes a 1/2 - 9/16 starter/manifold wrench. Its curved and removes many a dificult bolt. I bought one to work on my Corvair in 1969, Ive used it every year since. I think they list other sizes in their big tool catalog for repair shops.

morgan Murphy, #17409

The bolt is 11/16ths.  I was going to go to Sears tonight, but they closed here at 6.

Thanks for the tip.

Morgan

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Morgan,

For what its worth, I NEVER use an air wrench, or an Impact Wrench to undo ANY nut or bolt, until I have loostened it, except for a wheel nut.

Using the hand and feeling associated with removing a stubborn fastening is far less likely to break that fastening.   The brain tells you when to stop, and then you have the decision whether to snap off the bolt and drill and tap the hole afterwards

A "Rattle Gun" is just too viscous.

Also, if I find that a bolt head is not quite the original shape, that is, it is slightly rusted or rounded at the points, I find a socket that will fit tightly.   By this I mean, going to my tools and getting a socket, whether it be a Metric one, or a Whitworth, and a last resort, a 6 sided impact socket.   That way, you have less chance of slipping.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV.

John #22631


Geoff Newcombe #4719


Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Great advice, thank you.  Ive taken to heart and purchased a giant can of PB Blaster.  Ive applied it twice today.  Ill keep soaking the offending bolt until Friday.  Ive taken the day off and will hopefully make some progress on the Brougham.

Morgan

Morgan Murphy, No. 17409

Porter:

Hey man, that PB Blaster stuff did the trick.  I sprayed it on 3 times a day since you gave me that advice.  Then, this afternoon, I took a 6-sided socket to it and voila!  She came right out.  Man, when it first started to give, I checked the bolt every 1/20th of a turn to see if the head was rounding.  Not a bit.  It came out looking brand new.

Thank you, thank you, for your stellar advice.  Now its on to intake manifold removal!

Morgan

Porter

Not me dude, it was John aka "Big Fins" that recommended the PB blaster, I use it all the time.

The last bolt ( in to the head )on my 66 429 water pump started to loosen but didnt feel good, it snapped off where the threads started inside the aluminum housing, had to use a pipe insert to drill out the bolt and weld an extension on a tap to clean out the threads. Otherwise it was a major league jack up the engine / drop the oil pan / remove the waterpump housing / etc. job.

My bleeder screws snapped off on my 90 Van brake calipers, even after numerous PB blaster applications. On my 67 CDV wheel cylinders I used an acetlyene torch and PB blaster ( with them off the car and honed them out for a rebuild kit ), came out no prob.

There was no reason to remove your intake for a tri carb rebuild, no garage would have done that. They would have removed the carbs, rebuilt them and adjusted them accordingly.

Dont expect to be so fortunate with exhaust manifold bolts and PB Blaster, not gonna happen.

Before you remove the distributor find TDC for the reinstall ( or just dont turn the engine over and drop it back in so the rotor points in the same exact direction )and get new intake gaskets. Better have the shop manual or required info for the tri power adjustment, that is where the real expertise will be required to get it to work properly, proper carb rebuilding is only the first phase.

HTH,

Porter ( not a tri carb expert but I have been warned, nothing I wouldnt attempt without the factory adjustment specifications. And all those fuel line fittings are another can of worms, leaks cause engine fires. )