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346 Oil Pump Pick up...

Started by fiftyv8, May 11, 2007, 11:25:28 PM

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fiftyv8



???
Hi guys, is there any body out there who can tell me what is inside the pan shaped oil pump pick up.
It is the round item with the wire mesh on one side.

How do I clean it, do I need it with a remote filter system, should it be hollow and empty inside or what, I want to service it and know that is being replaced clean and in the correct condition.
I have an old manual, but it does not show or mention this unit. A cross section of it would be helpful.

Please dont just look and move on let me know if you have any info.

Where do you guys get replacement ring gears from? 

Regards, Russ.    ???
Russ Ritchie.

Fred Zwicker #23106

#1
On Page 235 of my 1939-1941 Cadillac Shop Manual (Engine section) is shown what must be this part.  It is called a "floating oil intake". On page 245, manual says the following: "The gear type oil pump is bolted to the bottom of the crankcase at the left of the rear main bearing. The pressure regulator is built into the pump body. Oil enters the pump through a screened and floating intake, and is forced through a drilled passage to the oil header, which is drilled lengthwise along the left side of the crankcase. From the header, other drilled passages branch through the support webs to the main and camshaft bearings."  Instructions go on to say to clean the oil pump, baffle, float screen, regulator valve and oil pan with compressed air and kerosene.  I think we will be doing this to ours next week, but will probably want to charge this intake with fresh oil before starting the engine for instant lubrication when engine is started next.

I currently have my engine out and have removed a similar part from my 1939 LaSalle. Mine has a screen visible around the perimeter and it looks as if the bottom clips in place with 4 or 5 small prongs about 1/2" wide.  Inside is what appears to be a copper gauze material, similar to what is inside the oil breather caps.

Somewhere else I read that this is a float, so that oil is pulled into the oil pump from the clean part of the oil, not from the gunk in the bottom.  I plan to remove the top of this next week to clean the copper screen/gauze and to see what else is inside, if anything.

This part has a copper 90 degree curved angle pipe that must lead to the pump itself. I will be taking a closer look next week, as may be removing the oil pump for checking and/or replacement then.  Bob Cooper stocks new oil pumps and I have one on order just in case.  I did not ask Bob about this part, but he probably can provide this information. Cooper's Vintage Auto Parts is located in Burbank, CA and has most engine parts and other parts for our older Cadillacs.  He can be reached at 818-567-4140, or see www.coopersvintage.com

I am also wondering how far to go with cleanup of the top end of my engine. It ran perfectly, did not burn oil, had good oil pressure, etc., but when I removed the top valve covers for gasket replacement, found that there was a LOT of black gunk that I removed very carefully with a plastic putty knife and other means. I was able to get it into decent shape, but am wondering if I should go further by cleaning up with kerosene under pressure (from the top) and whether to blow out the oil lines with kerosene under pressure.  While it will undoubtedly clean up more of the gunk, am concerned that it might cause more problems in the process.  The only reason that I removed my engine was to clean the frame and paint the firewall, and also to clean, paint and detail the engine, as well as replace all of the gaskets.  I am afraid of going too far with an otherwise good engine.  Any ideas on this?

Fred Zwicker

P.S. Click on pictures below to enlarge for more detail.
1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

fiftyv8

Hi Fred, thank you for the info on the oil pump pick up.
I am assuming then that the actual float pan portion needs to be hollow and remain empty so as it will float.
My unit seems mostly empty, but does contain something sounding like liquid or oil that has seeped in from some where.
You info is good and I will now take a second look at what I have and get a better idea how to deal with it.

With respect to your problem of gunk etc, my engine looked a lot like that but I saw it when I was dis-assembling it ready for rebuilding. I have since chosen to install a remote oil filter which I have received advice on the is forum on how to do it.

In short there is a removeable block plug on the front drivers side of the engine which is part of the oil rail.
You connect one end of your filter to this which will provide a pressured oil flow to the filter and then a return flow is if correctly done flows back into the timing chain cover thru one of the studs which is drilled or maybe able to be purchased to do the job. I am making a modified pattern to cast aluminum timing chain covers without the fuel pump mount point and the fan adjuster removed. If you care to read below it will be explained.
Any way in my case I will drill and tap a entry point for the return oil into the side of the new timing chain cover and direct the flow onto the timing chain.

In short I think that a remote filter will help remove a large proportion of this gunk and let us both sleep better at night knowing that is it being captured in a fliter system. For you I guess you will get a authentic unit where as I will be looking for an aluminum finned repro style unit, similar to the beehive unit Speedway motors sells for flathead Ford V8's.

First up I am ignorant when it comes to most things Cadillac, except to say I am becoming and caddy flathead engine expert although I still have a long ways to go.

I have copied below the following from an earlier post of mine just to give you a feel from where I am coming with respect to caddy stuff.

I am building this engine from scratch it is an ex-military item which was in pretty sad shape.
I have re-metaled the crank back to stock sizes and sleeved the 346 back to 322 cid.
I had the cam reground with a 10% improved grind so I am told, limited with the hydraulic lifters so they tell me.
Got all the usual new stuff inside etc.

I plan to add a T700 overdrive tranny to it and install it into a 1926 model T coupe which has had the decklid area removed and turned into a 5 window pickup, probably a body that Henry Ford should have made but did'nt.

I have a narrowed 1952 Caddy diff for the rear with F100 drum brakes and intend to run the same year spindles on a dropped Ford hot rod front axle with Ford disc brakes.

Because the T frame was only light, I have ordered a specially re-shaped 1932 Ford boxed chassis with a model A Ford truck front crossmember to sit it all on since this chassis has the extra depth in the rails to support such a heavy engine.

I plan to install a early ford windsor 2 barrel carby, cast my own aluminum, timing chain cover without the fan support bolt and reinforcing and run a thermatic fan thru a 1932 Ford V8 radiator.

I am considering power steering and 4 spot Wilwood front disc calipers to control this hot rod, even have thoughts of A/C if I get the mind to try it.

I have been reading with interest other folks comments regarding Caddy engine modifications. I do not intend to increase the compression ratio but will install an HEI electronic distributor.
Where can I get spark plugs from?

Still trying to come to grips with that damn exhaust system, which is clever, but challenging for a hot rodder to keep it tidy and functional, I dont want 6 single pipes pointing up in the air. It will come to me eventually.

So there you go, this is my resume. I need to build a flexplate to carry the ring gear but it will not drive the tranny, it will only be used for starting the engine using the original starter motor.

What advise I have received from a hot rod site is that I should consider getting an Aluminum flywheel made and fit a ring gear to it, so that is where I am right now. I need a ring gear to do this job.

If there was an existing flexplate that I could use this would be great and negate the need for the Aluminum flywheel exercise.

Any thoughts now you know the back ground or do ask more questions if it will help!!!
I hope this has be as helpful as it has probably been interesting.
Regards, Russ.
Russ Ritchie.

fiftyv8

Does anybody know if these pick ups can still be purchased new or NOS and from where...
If you think you know please share it.
Russ.
Russ Ritchie.

Fred Zwicker #23106

I would start out by calling Bob Cooper at Cooper's Vintage Auto Parts in CA.  818-567-4140.  He will probably either have it in stock, or know where to look.

Fred Zwicker
1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

Len Sholes

Hello FiftyV8.  All you need to do is bend the clips back carefully and you can take it all apart clean the screen and body and reassemble it. You should also check the condition of the relief valve and its seat in the pump casting. If you are concerned then you can put some valve lapping compound on the face of the relief valve and lap it back and forth against the seat just like you would lap in a engine valve. I always use Lubriplate Engine Assembly Grease when I reasemmble componets and engines. As for the remote mount oil filter you need to realize that it is a bypass filter. Not all of the oil goes through it and as it gets plugged up with contamination then less oil is filtered. This is the way most early engines oil filters were designed. It wasn't until later that the full flow filter was introduced. I tried to post a coulpe of photos of a 346 oil pump dismantled, from a engine that I just rebuilt, to show you the screen arrangement but I couldn't get it to work.

fiftyv8

Thanks for your post, seems my problem is that the float has a leak and does not float, fills with oil, maybe past its use by date.
Can new items be purchased, have not contacted Coopers yet but any other options would be nice to know about.
Russ.
Russ Ritchie.

Fred Zwicker #23106

Quote from: fiftyv8 on May 17, 2007, 02:33:26 AM
Thanks for your post, seems my problem is that the float has a leak and does not float, fills with oil, maybe past its use by date.

So many things can be learned on this forum!  After reading your post, took another look at my float, which I thought was OK, as it looked good and when removed from the engine, there was no evidence of it being filled with oil when shaken.  The float had been out of the motor for about a week, sitting on my workbench and today I noticed a definite leakage of oil in 2 places, where there was evidence of it being soldered some years back.  I shook the float and this time, I could feel it was almost full of liquid (oil).  The problem is how to get the oil out, so here is what I did, based on my theory that most everything can be fixed if you take the time to figure out a solution.

I drilled a 1/4" hole in the one suspect area and plenty of oil drained out for several hours. See this hole as outlined in white in attached picture labeled "Bottom View".  I then took a can of WD-40 and, using the small red thin nozzle attachment, squirted WD-40 into the 1/4" hole.  Much oil squirted out immediately, because of the dilution and the pressure. I did this a couple of times and kept draining the oil and WD-40 mix until I got out all of the mixture.  I will identify this 1/4" hole as the "top hole".

To be sure there were no more leaks, I took an air blow gun with rubber tip and (using very low pressure), applied intermittent pressure into the 1/4" hole. Sure enough, another leak showed up at the other suspect area, as shown by white arrow in attached picture, directly below the top hole near the outside edge.  I will identify this hole as the "bottom hole". As the only remaining contents in the float was a dilute mix of WD-40 and the air, I could clearly see a mist escaping from the bottom hole when air pressure was applied.  I also noticed a very, very fine mist escaping from the outside perimeter of the oil pickup inlet in the center bottom of the float (directly between the top hole and bottom hole).  This mist was very fine and almost not visible, but was there when air was applied.  So now that the oil has been removed, I now have 3 areas to repair.  The float is at home this weekend, so will take it back to work next week and I will carefully glass bead the entire surface and then solder around the pickup inlet and then resolder the bottom hole.  I will then perform the same test to be sure no more leaks and also so be sure that the existing leaks are properly soldered. 

Caution - when pressurizing this float, you must use very low pressure (about 10 psi or so) and not hold the air gun too tight, as it is possible to blow up the entire assembly. As air was applied, even at low pressure, the surface lifted up a bit from the pressure, so I immediately lifted up the air blow gun to relieve the pressure.  I repeated this process several times.  While this could be a little risky, this is the only way to find the leaks.  Once all of the leaks are located and repaired, we will then solder the 1/4" hole and reattach the screen assembly. Float should then be ready for many years of service.

If I had not noticed this, and reinstalled the float assembly (full of oil instead of air), it would have sunk to the bottom of the oil pan, sucking in the normal dirty oil and sludge that settles to the bottom. The idea is for the assembly to float on the surface of the oil and pick up clean oil, not the muck from the bottom.  Since the float had been full of oil for probably many years, this could account for some of the sludge inside the top end of the engine.

See attached pictures to see what I am trying to explain.  I see no reason why this will not work, once we do a good soldering job next week.

Fred Zwicker
1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

fiftyv8

Nice work Fred, glad we got to discuss this problem, seems this discussion has helped both of out.
I will take a closer look at mine although yours looks in better condition than mine, but it may improve with a good clean up, it has been played with before so it is not pretty. That is why I originally asked where I could buy a replacement.

Ill get back to you once I get started.

You must be in the running for the best post of the month...

Many thanks, Russ.
Russ Ritchie.

Grayle CLC #19544

Russ-

I own a 1940 LaSalle and your project description caught my eye.  I will try to point you towards help for your transmission adaptor / ring gear problem.  A few years ago while searching for an engine shop to rebuild my 322, I ran across this local transmission shop.  Here is the link to their website.    http://www.transmissionadapters.com/index.htm

They have done some adaptor work with the flathead engines.

Regards
Grayle
G. Leech   #19544

fiftyv8

Hi Grayle , thanks for the link, I will check it out, but I have a suspicion that this adapter will be the similar to what I have and they dont supply a flexplate or ring gear. I see the Ford guys do but for some reaso I have not found a supplier who does a caddy item. I plan to make my own if I can only purchase a good ring gear.

It needs to be 15 3/4" outside diameter of the teeth and I need 156 teeth.

I have been contacted by another guy with the same problem and we may have an aluminum item cast and then just fit the ring gear to it. we are both very surprised that the kit guys dont make it.

Seems strange that they expect these engines to turn a flywheel plus a torque converter, doesnt seem logical.

Always appreciate any help or info, many thanks, Russ.
Russ Ritchie.