1963 390 - Frustrating problem with ticking noise

[TrevorK]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum, but registered in the hope that someone here can help me with an ongoing problem I'm having with what sounds like a ticking lifter in my 1963 Series 63 convertible. I've been posting on the 63/64 Cadillac forum, so I think it might be easier to post a link to my thread there, rather than try to explain the problem from the start here again. I'd be grateful to the anyone who can provide some help, as I'm reaching the end of my rope on this one. Thanks in advance.

Trevor

Here's the link - Note that there are several pages to the post, so you have to go to the end to see the most recent events in this ongoing saga:

http://groups.msn.com/196364CadillacCommunity/general.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=26783&ShowDelete=0&ID_CLast=26803&CDir=-1&all_topics=0

[35-709]

Trevor,
I had a similar problem with the 390 in my '60 Cadillac.  Sounded like it was from the left side, go over there and it then sounded like it was on the right side, then in the middle.  In my case it turned out to be the intake manifold, there is an exhaust passage in the intake manifold, a small exhaust leak can sound just like a lifter ticking!  Not necessarily the intake manifold gasket ---- the manifold itself may have a crack in it in the exhaust passage, check it very closely.  A friend with a '64 had that ticking noise also, he ended up replacing his intake but it probably could have been repaired by a professional welder.  Also, since you are only driving this car in nice weather that exhaust passage is unnecessary, block it off on both sides.  Disconnect the coil spring on your exhaust heat riser and manually open it, it will soon rust fast in the open position, another thing you don't need except in really cold weather and it helps force hot exhaust through the intake manifold.  Sounds like you've checked everything else pretty well, give this a shot.  Please let us know your progress and the final outcome.  Best of luck.
Geoff N.
 

[TrevorK]

Thanks for the reply Geoff. I've wondered if it could be something other than a lifter, but if it was an exhaust leak or a cracked manifold, wouldn't the noise be fairy constant? There are times when the engine runs very quietly and smoothly, and then other at times it will be very loud and noticable - it seems to be worse when the motor warms up, but not always. Also, when I had this engine rebuilt the machinist told me the original intake was cracked, and the one on the car is a replacement which makes me think that he was checking for cracks before this intake went on.

Trevor

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Trevor,

A cracked manifold will give off noises that will either get louder, or softer as the metal will move as it heats up.

Mostly, an Exhaust Manifold will quieten up as it heats up and expands, thus closing up the cracks.

An Intake will do it similarly, but not as fast as it takes longer for the Intyake to reach trhe temperatures, and in the case of an Intake Manifold, that might create a louder noise as it expands.

But, you definately don't want exhaust gasses escaping into the engine internals.

Bruce.

[35-709]

This has been bothering me to the point that my mind won't let me sleep, but I'm retired so I can sleep late in the morning 

You aren't in Florida are you?  I'd sure like to hear that engine run, your link on the 63/64 site didn't take me to the recording you made.  What is bothering me is that my answer above didn't cover as much as it could have.  If you have a tick, tick, tick, it could be a valve problem (or more than one) and it could also be an exhaust leak, and not just the intake. If you have a "clatter" you are more than likely looking at just a valve train problem.

Exhaust leaks ..........
I can't believe that a professional engine builder wouldn't know to do this but did he use exhaust manifold gaskets when he reassembled the exh. manifolds to the car?  Cadillac assembled them at the factory without gaskets for years, and when they were fresh and clean and true that worked OK.  Some folks have questioned whether gaskets were needed after a rebuild or manifold replacement but they definitely are, and are included with the overhaul gasket kits.  If he DIDN"T use exh. gaskets you can probably stop looking for your problem right here.  In my opinion, the problem with assembling new with no gaskets is that no "give" is allowed for differences in expansion and contraction as the engine and manifolds warm and cool.  This is seems to work OK as long as the engine remains within its normal operating temperatures, but overheat a 390 or 429 and it is a good bet that you will develop a crack in one or both exh. manifolds.  Some just cracked anyway, it is fairly common.  It will make a ticking noise out the crack and sound just like a ticking valve.  As Bruce mentioned they are usually noisier when the engine is cold and quiet down as the manifold warms and expands, but the opposite could no doubt happen depending where the crack is ..... nothing is cast in stone here.

Intake Manifold .......
This is still where my suspicion lies and you raised a red flag for me when you said the builder used a "replacement" intake because yours was already cracked.  I am going to ASSume here that the replacement intake was a used Cadillac intake and not an aftermarket such as Edelbrock, etc.  If it WAS a used Cad. intake, it may have problems other than a crack.  I also have to assume that he planed the intake's mating surfaces.  One must be very careful doing this with an intake because the surfaces mating with the head are at an angle and removing too much material will not allow them to match up properly.  If the intake wasn't planed or was planed too much (who knows if it was done before, its used, right?) the gasket may not be sealing properly at the exhaust and THAT could give you a tick, tick, tick.   

The automatic choke heat tube runs through the  exhaust part of the intake ..... in one side (the one you see where the separate choke tube pushes into it), and out the other on the bottom side of the intake.  Air can enter the tube at bottom side, is pulled through the tube, that also has a twisted piece of flat metal inserted in it, and is warmed on its way to the auto. choke causing the choke bi-metallic spring to open the choke as the engine warms.  This tube can deteriorate and develop holes so that raw exhaust pushes into the tube both ways (ruining the bi-metallic choke pull-off spring in time) annnndd out the other end where air is supposed to come IN, making a ticking sound!  Of all things!  That, or a leaking gasket, could be why it sometimes sounds like the noise is coming from the middle of the engine.

By the way , it has been told to me that if the heat riser is (or was) stuck in the closed position (common) forcing a lot of very hot exhaust gas to constantly be pushed through the intake manifold, this will in time result in a cracked intake manifold.  Unless you know your heat riser is free and working properly, and are willing to check it and lubricate it on a regular basis, I would most certainly disable it.  You don't need it even in cold weather if you are just a little patient with the engine warm up.  Unhook the large bi-metallic spring, as I mentioned before, make sure it is open, and then maybe wire it there until time and a little rust keeps it there permanently.  Or, remove it all together, take the guts out, plug the small hole on each side where the flapper valve shaft went through, and put it back in .... with fresh gaskets of course. 

Bottom line .... the above could all be just a bunch of senseless BLATHER, typed up so I could get to sleep.  You may have a serious valve train problem here and I have absolutely no idea what the hell might be wrong.  Once again, best of luck, and keep us posted.
Geoff N. 

     

 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Geoff,

I am wide awake here where it is still 4.08pm, Monday and daylight.

I forgot to mention that my motor had the "ticking" noise, and it turned out to be the erosion of the cylinder head surface where the Crossover (Cross-under) exhaust passage met.

This passage must have been leaking for a long time, and the exhaust gasses gradually wore away the surface, and created a leak.   I didn't see it when I stripped the engine down, as I knew it had been previously rebuilt by the local Technical College as a project, but they missed that part.   

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I simply removed the guts of the Auto Choke part, blocked it up, and plugged up the offending Head Port, Left Side, and it will never leak again, and upon re-assembling, the noise was gone.

Bruce.

[35-709]

Morning Bruce (yawn),
Same thing with the crossover exhaust in my '60 on both sides.  I wasn't smart enough at the time to just block it off, I used a little high temperature RTV on both sides of the new gasket(s) when I reassembled and that did it for me.  I did disable the heat riser and I think that helped also.

[TrevorK]

Geoff - sorry to hear that this is keeping you awake as well, but it's nice to know that I'm not the only one worrying about it. Unfortunately, I'm too far away from you - Calgary, Alberta - so unless you wan't to go for a LONG drive, this will have to be via internet. I've posted a couple of new videos to YouTube, which will hopefully work better than the other site. I think the noise is a bit clearer in the second clip. Here are the links:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/L8t_ituZ9ig"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/L8t_ituZ9ig" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7sr7m_CVl_A"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7sr7m_CVl_A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[TrevorK]

Not sure why the links showed up like that. Here they are again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8t_ituZ9ig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sr7m_CVl_A

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

G'day Trevor,

The sound reproduction wasn't really that clear, but here is an idea.

Unless you have a Mechanics Stethoscope, I would be investing in a 6 foot length of Garden Hose, and with one end held to the ear, start moving the other end over various parts of the engine, placing the end of the hose hard up against the surfaces, and eventually, you will come up with where the "noise" is coming from.

People, including myself use long Screwdrivers to the ear, but the hose makes it a lot easier to get into hard places to reach.

Bruce.

[35-709]

Does sound like a valve tick to me, but as Bruce said it really isn't clear enough, and exhaust leak noises can be deceiving.  Know any other old-time mechanics that have been around these engines a lot that you could have listen to it?  Sorry I can't be of much further help from here.
Geoff N.