"The Modifieds"

[Johnny F #662]

When we switched to "People's Choice" judging in 2003 for Potomac Region car shows, we added a modified class. Since then we have seen quite a few modifieds and a modified won Best of Show for the first time ever at our 2007 Spring Car Show.  Below are pictures of the modified 1947 Convertible Coupe with a 500 Caddie engine.



Prior to 2003, our Region did points judging and it made more enemies than friends for numerous reasons.  Our goal since then has been to emphasize camaraderie not competition and it has been a huge success.  We are at an all-time high in membership and our shows keep growing and growing.  There is plenty of room for all points of view within our club.

What I suggested for Grand National judging regarding modifieds, is to have a special "people's choice" ballot just for the modifieds.  Let all the GN registrants pick one modified as their favorite and give out 1st, 2nd and 3rd place awards.  This accomplishes a couple of things: 1) recognizes the modifieds beyond display only and 2) allows the GN registrants to get more involved with the event. 

I think you bring up a most important point  "JUDGING!".  I basically agree with all you have posted, especially how it has made more enemies then friends!  Sure they make a person who has spent endless hours and or money to restore their car to as original as possible, and they walk away happy and proud, but how about the majority of others who walk away with nothing and feel as though their "pride and joy" was as good if not better?

[BillB]

 This discussion is almost humorous.  I've been to a couple of Grand Nationals, andsomeclubs functions.  I go up to a car that has been restored and am always impressed with the way the car sitting there is in far better condition than when it came off the assembly line.   It has been restored to specification, not assembly line standard.  It's been said by others that a car is "original" only once.  After that, it isn't ever so again.  The discussion will continue, but cars which are modified to be original specification, or personal preference will always be there.

[Johnny F #662]

This discussion is almost humorous.  I've been to a couple of Grand Nationals, andsomeclubs functions.  I go up to a car that has been restored and am always impressed with the way the car sitting there is in far better condition than when it came off the assembly line.   It has been restored to specification, not assembly line standard.  It's been said by others that a car is "original" only once.  After that, it isn't ever so again.  The discussion will continue, but cars which are modified to be original specification, or personal preference will always be there.

Yes it is humorous, along the lines of "what came first the chicken or the egg?".  Of course humorous or not, this is a very important topic to be discussed either seriously or academically.

[Jim mootty]

I think modifieds are great. You can drive them at highway speeds (70 MPH+) air conditioning, Power brakes,steering etc. Great excelleration. I currently have a '41 cad convert. small block, overdrive,airbags etc. I will be doing the same to my '42 cad. conv. My muscle cars are also modernized.

[Johnny F #662]

I think modifieds are great. You can drive them at highway speeds (70 MPH+) air conditioning, Power brakes,steering etc. Great excelleration. I currently have a '41 cad convert. small block, overdrive,airbags etc. I will be doing the same to my '42 cad. conv. My muscle cars are also modernized.

Uh Oh !  The plot thickens, now we have a new title for these cars  "modernized"

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Or Updated?

Bruce.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

   Does anyone know the owner's name, Email address, or CLC # of this Cadillac seen at the GN?  My friend and CLC member has some questions on the Northstar engine installation.  Whether or not you like a modified Cadillac, this one is a beauty!

Thanks,

Fred

[Guidematic]

Oh yes, there has always been a level of snobbery associated with Cadillacs. Part of the appeal.

But, I have noticed the snobbery quotient much higher in "Other" car clubs for cars of lesser stature.

Now, am I a snob for saying that?

Mike

Lesser stature............himmmmmmm interesting term.  What do you mean by lesser stature?  Cars that cost less then a Cadillac when they were both new? 

Now, I'll leave that up to you. Lesser in cost, lesser in engineereing or whatever. I won't name names.

Mike

[Johnny F #662]

Oh yes, there has always been a level of snobbery associated with Cadillacs. Part of the appeal.

But, I have noticed the snobbery quotient much higher in "Other" car clubs for cars of lesser stature.

Now, am I a snob for saying that?

Mike

Lesser stature............himmmmmmm interesting term.  What do you mean by lesser stature?  Cars that cost less then a Cadillac when they were both new? 

Now, I'll leave that up to you. Lesser in cost, lesser in engineereing or whatever. I won't name names.

Mike

Come on Mike name names....stand up for what you believe is right.....

[Vince Taliano #13852]

Fred,

Check with Dan Reed or Jack McClow.  Dan was the meet photographer and kept a log of photos taken, owner's name, car year, etc.  Jack was the meet registrar.  Dan's email is dan@danreedillustration.com and Jack's is jmcclow@earthlink.net

Vince

  Does anyone know the owner's name, Email address, or CLC # of this Cadillac seen at the GN?  My friend and CLC member has some questions on the Northstar engine installation.  Whether or not you like a modified Cadillac, this one is a beauty!

Thanks,

Fred

[Art Director]

Dan never took a photo of this car. Actually, none of the modified cars made their way over to Dan's photo station. I ought to know; I've sorted through all his photos preparing them for The Self-Starter.

Tim

Fred,

Check with Dan Reed or Jack McClow.  Dan was the meet photographer and kept a log of photos taken, owner's name, car year, etc.  Jack was the meet registrar.  Dan's email is dan@danreedillustration.com and Jack's is jmcclow@earthlink.net

Vince

  Does anyone know the owner's name, Email address, or CLC # of this Cadillac seen at the GN?  My friend and CLC member has some questions on the Northstar engine installation.  Whether or not you like a modified Cadillac, this one is a beauty!

Thanks,

Fred

[Stampie]

Mine made it over there.  If the rust wasn't modified enough the rear engine 472 should have been.

Stampie

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Dan never took a photo of this car. Actually, none of the modified cars made their way over to Dan's photo station. I ought to know; I've sorted through all his photos preparing them for The Self-Starter.

Tim 

You mean that there aren't going to be any "modified at Savannah" representation in the Self Starter!

Will have to look into this state of affairs.

Bruce.

[EAM-clc 17806]

I'm wearing my flak jacket now, and I'll need it in a few seconds!

I'm amused at some of the reasons that hot rodders ("modified" in their parlance) have for making a car into a hotrod. First: Saved from a crusher..  I  saved all 11 of my collector cars from crushers, and mysteriously, they're like the factory made them! Nobody forced me to turn them into hotrods. Secondly: I want to drive it.  I have no trouble driving my as-original cars, especially the  Cadillacs. Tey're just great on the highway. They're at home on the highway. Thirdly: You can't get parts for old cars. Check Hemmings, and see just what parts are available. The guy who wants to rebuild a Duesenberg engine can get parts for  even that if he wants them. Parts for vintage Cadillac engines are reasonably easy to find.   

It all comes down to: if a guy wants to make a hotrod out of some car; he'll do it, excuses or no excuses. I can envision the day when there will be no such thing as a factory original car. In days past, wrecked or junked cars were resurrected into racing sleds, and their inhabitants were simply noisy nuisances. Today, hot rodders have lots of money, and they spend it lavishly on hot rods. It's more fun than giving their kids an education. They make sure that the kids don't want an education, which clears the way for the $75K or so for their racing sled.  I've seen near-100 point cars gutted, chassis hacked with different chassis components, the interior outfitted with cheap plastic upholstered seats, dime store instruments, and of course, the "required"  yellow flames on the sheet metal. Artisans, they!

I agree 100% with Doug!  Modifieds take away from the originality of the Cadillac and should not be part of our Club. Let them start their own club of modifieds and not be allowed to ruin the original intent of our Club to keep Cadillacs and LaSalles in the same beautiful condition they were manufactured in.  OUT WITH MODIFIEDS!  EAM-CLC 17806

[Big Fins]

I'm wearing my flak jacket now, and I'll need it in a few seconds!

I'm amused at some of the reasons that hot rodders ("modified" in their parlance) have for making a car into a hotrod. First: Saved from a crusher..  I  saved all 11 of my collector cars from crushers, and mysteriously, they're like the factory made them! Nobody forced me to turn them into hotrods. Secondly: I want to drive it.  I have no trouble driving my as-original cars, especially the  Cadillacs. Tey're just great on the highway. They're at home on the highway. Thirdly: You can't get parts for old cars. Check Hemmings, and see just what parts are available. The guy who wants to rebuild a Duesenberg engine can get parts for  even that if he wants them. Parts for vintage Cadillac engines are reasonably easy to find.   

It all comes down to: if a guy wants to make a hotrod out of some car; he'll do it, excuses or no excuses. I can envision the day when there will be no such thing as a factory original car. In days past, wrecked or junked cars were resurrected into racing sleds, and their inhabitants were simply noisy nuisances. Today, hot rodders have lots of money, and they spend it lavishly on hot rods. It's more fun than giving their kids an education. They make sure that the kids don't want an education, which clears the way for the $75K or so for their racing sled.  I've seen near-100 point cars gutted, chassis hacked with different chassis components, the interior outfitted with cheap plastic upholstered seats, dime store instruments, and of course, the "required"  yellow flames on the sheet metal. Artisans, they!

I agree 100% with Doug!  Modifieds take away from the originality of the Cadillac and should not be part of our Club. Let them start their own club of modifieds and not be allowed to ruin the original intent of our Club to keep Cadillacs and LaSalles in the same beautiful condition they were manufactured in.  OUT WITH MODIFIEDS!  EAM-CLC 17806

EAM CLC17806,
You Sir, are a closed minded person. Open your eyes to the 21st century. As was stated before, YOUR car if you have one is MODIFIED. So get out of the CLC. And don't come over to the Modified Chapter either. We don't want people like you.
'Nuff said.

Fins

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

EAM CLC17806,
You Sir, are a closed minded person. Open your eyes to the 21st century. As was stated before, YOUR car if you have one is MODIFIED. So get out of the CLC. And don't come over to the Modified Chapter either. We don't want people like you.
'Nuff said.

Fins

C'mon Fins,

You know that we like everyone, and everyone has their right to believe in what they want to believe in.

Bruce.
President of the Modified Chapter of the CLC.

[Fred Zwicker #23106]

   Fins is right - all of our cars (if we have an older Cadillac or LaSalle) have been "modified".  (But that does not mean to get out of our club).

I am in process of restoring my 1939 LaSalle Convertible and plan to keep it 100% original, as I like original cars.  However, I also appreciate modified cars, including Cadillacs.  I especially liked the 2 older Cadillac modified cars (1934 or 1935) that showed up at the GN. While I want my car to be original, there are certain things that I have added that are not as when the car was delivered from the factory in 1939:

a)  Engine is being rebuilt, but in the process was bored out .030 and stainless steel valves were added, so engine has been "modified".
b)  The car already had an electric fuel pump installed near gas tank, although also has a working (rebuilt) fuel pump. (Extra wiring and switch).
c)  Floor mats were replaced, but are not exactly the same as original, as such mats are not available, therefore interior has been "modified".
d)  I added two (2) Optima 6-volt batteries as got tired of hard stating when car was hot.  Doug Houston likes to keep things original 6-volt, but has a single 6-volt Optima dry-cell battery in most of his older cars.  Car did not come with such a battery setup, so our cars are "modified".
e)  Using original-style material, installed new trunk lining.  While it looks original, it is new - therefore car is "modified."
f)  During my installation, I added extra sound-deadener under the floor mats and inside the doors, cab and trunk - so car is "modified".
g) My convertible top was replaced, using "Stay-Fast" which is widely used and is an excellent product - but not same as original, so is "modified".
h)  Looking at the replacement light bulbs that I found, noted that some were "Made in China".  More modified things to add to my list.
i)  I had some of the metal surfaces (bumper supports, air cleaner, spare tire bracket, etc.) powder coated in black, which is not original, as powder coating was not available in 1939.  I guess this adds more "modified' items to my list.
j)  When repainting the car, did a lot of research to be sure that the original color (Oxblood Maroon) was used, but I did not use lacquer, instead painted the car in R-M base-coat-clear coat.  Therefore the paint is no longer the same as original, so my car is "modified".
k) I am adding Trippe Lights - what about them?  They were not on the car when it was delivered from the factory. (more wires and a switch too).
l)  I am almost certain that the coll was replaced, as it is not exactly like the pictures of original coils that I have seen.


Safety Features Added:
a)  I have a fire extinguisher in trunk of the car,  nicely displayed in a plastic front bag (see picture).
b)  Radial Diamondback Whitewalls (same size and whitewall width) were added for the following reasons:
      1) Safety (no matter what anyone says, IMO radials are a safer tire than the older bias tires and should not be charged points at judging).
      2) I tore a rotator cuff in my shoulder and found it almost impossible to pull the car in and out of my garage with the older bias tires.
         Does this mean that it is better to keep the bias tires and not pull the car out of the garage?   I could always take a few pictures I guess.
c)  I added a second socket in tail lights and ran a circuit for turn signals and flashers in this second socket (concealed but "modified").
d)  I am adding turn signal light fixtures that will be concealed behind the front side grilles.  Both front and rear turn signals will require additional wires which will not be original, but I will put them inside a fabric loom to be sure that they look appropriate and old.  (I am not sure, but the black fabric loom just might be made in China, even though it looks OK.
e)  I removed the older repro style (add-on) turn signal control on the steering column and replaced it with an original turn-signal control from a 1940 Cadillac or LaSalle. While it looks great and appears original, it is not, so my car has been "modified" some more.
f)  During the body restoration, some of the bolts had to be replaced.  The new bolts had hash marks on the heads.  While I ground them off for appearance, nevertheless they are not the original bolts, so again my car has been "modified".  I may have even added an extra washer or lock washer here and there.  I hope that I don't lose points as a result.
g)  I added seat belts, as realize the importance of same, so have again "modified" my car.  Maybe I should remove them next week  ?

What I am getting at is that when it comes down to it, all of our cars have been modified.  During a complete restoration, some modifications will be necessary and even desirable.  How far can we go?  No one knows, as everyone has their own opinion.

Then there is always the guy that shows up at the shows looking at our cars that finds each and every little thing that is not original and draws this to our attention.  Nine times out of ten, that person has either never restored a car or has never finished a restoration and one time out of ten that person does not even have an old car.  Let him do a complete restoration some day and see what he can do, but it will never happen.

What I prefer is an original looking car from the outside and this includes an appropriate paint job.  If the owner wants to add a modern engine and automatic transmission, power steering and brakes, etc. that is OK with me - even though I keep my cars original except for my many "modifications" listed above.  I like some things, others like other things, but all of us are interested in old Cadillacs and LaSalles. Where do we draw the line?

One more thing that we should consider is that exact original parts are almost impossible to locate, so we must adjust our thinking.  We should also realize that the younger generation is often interested in safety and convenience and cannot remember back to our younger days and doesn't particularly care about 100% originality.  That doesn't mean that they should not be welcomed to our club.

I have been going to Hershey for over 30 years and have a friend who likes to sit in our tent and do "people watching".  One day he remarked that the hobby might be suffering some day.  I asked why and he replied, "Too many gray hairs".  I started to take notice and he was right.  No longer do you see a large number of younger serious restorers at Hershey.  Some show up, but in general there are "too many gray hairs".  Not as many youngsters come with their parents as in the past, as they are busy with soccer or playing with their computers.  Accordingly, we had better start to welcome and encourage the younger generation to become a part of our hobby and to join our club and participate in our functions regardless of their preferences.  If they show up with a modified Cadillac, so what?  If we become too stringent in our requirements we will some day no longer have any members. 

I am all for original cars, survivors and mostly original cars, but recognize the importance of "modifieds" and will accept any such owners into our club. Let's simply give them another class at our shows and accept them with open arms so that their cars can be shown and enjoyed. 

See picture below that I named, "Ouch1".  This is a "modified" Cadillac that showed up at the recent Legacy show - that is going too far, but my bet is that some day someone will do an extreme makeover on this car.  Either way, the car was displayed along with the others and the owner was willing to drive it in the hard rain that day.  I think he even won a trophy.  Other owners of "original" Cadillacs did not want to get their prized cars wet.

Fred

[Johnny F #662]

This discussion has brought to the forefront the whole subject of "Judging" within the club.  Is winning trophies and awards what the club is all about?  When a hobby turns nasty and diversive, is it a hobby anymore?

[Jeff Hansen]

Folks, I think this discussion has gone far enough.  As I have stated previously, the topic of modified cars brings out passion on both sides of the topic.

Before we go to all out war, let's stop now.  We all are in the hobby for the love of the cars.  Let's rally around that point and move on.

Jeff