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38-53 standard 3 speed cadillac transmission help

Started by Jeff Maltby 4194, September 14, 2007, 04:22:54 PM

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Jeff Maltby 4194

1938-53 Cadillac standard side lever transmission information request. I have 2 vintage 3 speed transmissions here. One came out of my 51 miller hearse and is indentical to my clean spare tranny I'm looking to sell soon. The miller trans has  # 2-19 stamped below the left shift arms up side down, along with the rear housing vent being bell shaped. The spare tranny is # 104 stamped right side up with a straight vent shaft. The miller used clutch plate is 10.5" wide while the new rusco clutch plate is 11" diameter. 1. What year transmissions do I have here ? 2. What diameter clutch plates are proper ? 3. How can i check my spare transmission for working condition, as I've removed the 9 bolt bottom pan and it looks excellent inside, along with smooth shifting via side levers while rotating the the input shaft in all gears.

HELP :<)
Jeffo 49er chapter

CLC 1985
Honda Gold Wing GL1500

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Various models had 10.5 inch clutches and others had 11 inch.  The models show in the parts book.  In 41 with the introduction of the hydramatic the bearing in the rear extension housing was changed from a ball bearing to a babbit bearing.  The 38 transmission had a few different parts in it and there seems to be some variations in materials in different years.  I don’t have a source to identify the meaning of the numbers you gave.  Opening up the bottom cover and inspecting can reveal gear damage but there are other very common problems that can only be identified by taking the transmission apart.  I have disassembled 8 to 10 transmissions and have only seen two in excellent condition.  One was from a 12,000 mile car and the other had about 60,000 on it.  From what I have seen I think the gears are extremely rugged.  If gears are clashed going into first the gears will get chewed up.  This condition can be prevented just by touching 2nd gear synchromesh before shifting into 1st.  The two major problems I have seen internally are the cluster gear bearings and synchromesh wear.  The cluster gear has needle bearings running directly on the ID of the cluster gear and the cluster gear shaft.  Fatigue occurs on both bearing surfaces resulting in surface roughness and excess clearance.  I have heard of others adapting a caged needle bearing for this service but have not done that myself.  The excess clearance results in gear noise in first gear.  The cone clutches in the synchromesh wear resulting in hard shifting and other problems.  Most years of the shop manual have errors in them regarding transmission service.  I have corrected the manual using the same style as the original and added some comments about modern tools to use.  If anyone is interested I can email a copy.
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

baxterculver

Quote from: Brad Ipsen CLC #737 on September 15, 2007, 10:45:57 AM
Various models had 10.5 inch clutches and others had 11 inch.  The models show in the parts book.  In 41 with the introduction of the hydramatic the bearing in the rear extension housing was changed from a ball bearing to a babbit bearing.  The 38 transmission had a few different parts in it and there seems to be some variations in materials in different years.  I don’t have a source to identify the meaning of the numbers you gave.  Opening up the bottom cover and inspecting can reveal gear damage but there are other very common problems that can only be identified by taking the transmission apart.  I have disassembled 8 to 10 transmissions and have only seen two in excellent condition.  One was from a 12,000 mile car and the other had about 60,000 on it.  From what I have seen I think the gears are extremely rugged.  If gears are clashed going into first the gears will get chewed up.  This condition can be prevented just by touching 2nd gear synchromesh before shifting into 1st.  The two major problems I have seen internally are the cluster gear bearings and synchromesh wear.  The cluster gear has needle bearings running directly on the ID of the cluster gear and the cluster gear shaft.  Fatigue occurs on both bearing surfaces resulting in surface roughness and excess clearance.  I have heard of others adapting a caged needle bearing for this service but have not done that myself.  The excess clearance results in gear noise in first gear.  The cone clutches in the synchromesh wear resulting in hard shifting and other problems.  Most years of the shop manual have errors in them regarding transmission service.  I have corrected the manual using the same style as the original and added some comments about modern tools to use.  If anyone is interested I can email a copy.
Brad,
I would like to have a copy (baxterculver@yahoo.com)
Also, can you tell me if a later (post 1941) transmission will bolt into an earlier (pre-1941) car?  I have heard there is a difference in the yoke--forward end of the driveshaft that was changed because of the hydramatice option.  I recently purchased a "spare" that was taken out of a 1941 60S and want to know if I can put it into my '39 without modification.
baxter culver clc#17184

Jay Friedman

Having taken apart my car's synchromesh transmission and having replaced my clutch several times, in addition to what Brad said I can add 3 points:

1. Looking in a parts book as Brad suggests, in general heavier cars such Series 75, commercial chassis (hearses, etc.) and some other pre-war models were equipped with an 11 inch driven disc, while lighter models, including all post-war Series 61, 62 and 60S cars had a 10½ inch driven disc.  However, the pressure plates are the same, so either size driven disc can be used on any car.  (For example, I use an 11 inch disc on my '49 Series 61 originally equipped with a 10½ driven disc.)

2. Wear on the cluster gear bearings and bearing surfaces can be largely corrected.  Olcar Bearing Company, Southern Pines NC sells brand new cluster gear needle bearings for the '38-'53 Cadillac/LaSalle synchromesh transmission at a very reasonable price.  If the cluster gear shaft is worn, frequently most wear is on the upper side because of the gear's weight.  Some years ago Jack Hoffman advised me merely rotate it 180 degrees, that is turn it upside down, so that future wear is on the least worn out side of the shaft.  I did this along with installing new bearings and the transmission seemed to be quieter in first gear and perform better.  (Olcar also sells the the needle bearings that go between the front shaft and the main shaft.)

3. My car's '49 transmission has a bell-shaped rear vent tube, while my spare transmission, a '41, has the "straight" shaped vent tube.  These vents screw into the rear housing of the transmission.  I don't think there is any functional difference in the 2 types, but they are not interchangeable since their screw threads are different. 

Besides Olcar, some parts for these transmissions are stocked by Northwest Transmissions in Ohio and Valley Gear in Seattle. 

Brad, I would also like to get a copy of your instructions.  I'm particularly interested in how you deal with the 2 heavy snap rings, particularly the one holding in the second gear. 

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

Jay,

I will sent you the manual rewrite.  In there I have a tool recommended for the second gear snap ring.  It is KD tool number 2534 with the width on the tip ground down about half its original length.
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

Mike Simmons 938

Quote from: Brad Ipsen CLC #737 on September 15, 2007, 10:45:57 AM
Various models had 10.5 inch clutches and others had 11 inch.  The models show in the parts book.  In 41 with the introduction of the hydramatic the bearing in the rear extension housing was changed from a ball bearing to a babbit bearing.  The 38 transmission had a few different parts in it and there seems to be some variations in materials in different years.  I don’t have a source to identify the meaning of the numbers you gave.  Opening up the bottom cover and inspecting can reveal gear damage but there are other very common problems that can only be identified by taking the transmission apart.  I have disassembled 8 to 10 transmissions and have only seen two in excellent condition.  One was from a 12,000 mile car and the other had about 60,000 on it.  From what I have seen I think the gears are extremely rugged.  If gears are clashed going into first the gears will get chewed up.  This condition can be prevented just by touching 2nd gear synchromesh before shifting into 1st.  The two major problems I have seen internally are the cluster gear bearings and synchromesh wear.  The cluster gear has needle bearings running directly on the ID of the cluster gear and the cluster gear shaft.  Fatigue occurs on both bearing surfaces resulting in surface roughness and excess clearance.  I have heard of others adapting a caged needle bearing for this service but have not done that myself.  The excess clearance results in gear noise in first gear.  The cone clutches in the synchromesh wear resulting in hard shifting and other problems.  Most years of the shop manual have errors in them regarding transmission service.  I have corrected the manual using the same style as the original and added some comments about modern tools to use.  If anyone is interested I can email a copy.

Brad, Would greatly appreciate a copy as well. I have a couple of trans that have been apart a long time, and I won't trust my memory to do the reassembly as in the old days. On another point, I believe that the '41 and later stick trans all utilized a sliding driveshaft yoke that moved in and out of the rear of the trans. 1939 and '40 trans had the sliding member in the driveshaft. Apparently, pre-war hydramatics retained the early setup.Mike Simmons (938)