57-62 Mystery Vibration

[John Shumate #21509]

In discussion with members of the 1958 Cadillac Owners Club, it became aparent that there is a very common mystery vibration. It was also mentioned in a published road test of a new '59. The chassis was the same from '57-'62.
The vibration starts around 50 MPH, increases up to 60 MPH, then decreses  with higher speed. It is a pulsing vibration that is heard, rather than felt. I get the vibration with the car on a lift, so I assume it is in the drive train. I have swapped all 4 wheels and tires with my '89 Brougham, with no change in the performance of either car. Rebuilding the driveshaft does not solve the problem.
Have any of you experience such a problem or know what might be the source?
John Shumate
CLC 21509

[Ralph Messina CLC 4937]

John,

There is a center driveshaft bearing, at least on Fleetwoods, which will allow the drive shaft to vibrate. It produces a droning sound in the speed range you mention but not a noticeable shaking or vibration. It may be the culprit.
HTH,
Ralph

[John Shumate]

John,

There is a center driveshaft bearing, at least on Fleetwoods, which will allow the drive shaft to vibrate. It produces a droning sound in the speed range you mention but not a noticeable shaking or vibration. It may be the culprit.
HTH,
Ralph

Ralph
I assume that you are referring to what I call the "carrier bearing" which supports the shaft adjacent to the center universal joint (3 joints total). When I had the driveshaft rebuilt, the rebuilder inspected the carrier bearing and greased it. He did replace all the universals with OEM parts. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you are telling me that it is the carrier bearing that is the more likely source of the droning noise. Thanks for your input.
John

[35-709]

I got the same sort of vibration in both my '60 and my '66.  Found that I could gradually run the RPM up with either car in PARK and get the same vibration standing still when the RPMs would get to about where they would be at 50-60 miles per hour.  Try it.  No idea exactly what caused (causes) it.

[John Morris #23947]

Maybe a bad harmonic balancer? Just a guess.

[Doug 22747]

John,

I had the exact same problem many years ago when I switched to radials on my 63 CDV.  An old mechanic said it was because the alignment specs for the car was based on bias ply tires.  He said it could probably be fixed with a trial and error adjustment routine.  I ended up putting the tires on my 52 and eventually selling the 63.  Interestingly I didn't have the same vibration with radials on the 52.

Doug   

[Carl Schreiber]

John -

I've got a 57 Eldorado Biarritz, and the first thing I did was the drive shaft.  The first drive shaft shop I sent it to (to get u-joints replaced) said the carrier bearing was fine, and they lubed the bearing using a syringe.  I was a bit suspcious, it looked to be the original bearing.

Just great until I took the whole thing to another shop to have the transmission-end yoke replaced.
The second shop put the whole drive shaft on a test bed and spun it - that bearing was howling worse than the wolfman at a full moon!  They also re-balanced the driveshaft.  Doesn't say much for the first shop, eh?

Locating the bearing is a treat; try South Shore Bearing Distributors in Quincy Massachusetts (877.768.8427), or even try your local NAPA, who was able to locate one for me.  You don't want to put that drive shaft in the car without a new bearing.  Also, don't fail to lube the slip joint at the carrier bearing.  Remove the small slotted-head bolt in the shaft, install a zerk fitting, and grease it.

This stuff needs to be done, and at least if it still vibrates/makes noise, you'll be able to rule out the driveshaft

Carl Schreiber
CLC #23157

[yogicr]

Your carrier barring would probably be the most likely source of your vibration or noise. They make a stethescope for mechanics if you could perhaps borrow one someone could ride in the car placing this on the floor in the area of the carrier barring, and when you get close to the noise source you will notice the noise gets louder. The other cheaper way, is to just take a broom stick, place one end near your ear the other end at the area where you believe the problem may be and you will notice a difference in the sound. The other thing is as for your tires, radial tires specifically Michelin tires will make a significant difference in your ride, the side walls on the Michelin tires are thinner then most tires, this allows alot of forgiveness for alinement problems. good luck.

[Steve H]

John,
You might want to consider the carrier bearing shims. My !959 had three when I took it apart. Platers lost one. These line up the axel at the carrier bearing. They are listed in my parts book Group 2.0962: Shim, Propeller Shaft Center Bearing Support; part number 147 2817  AR (as required). So I guess they only made them in one thickness. Hope this helps.
Steve

[John Shumate #21509]

I am continuing to chase this vibration. I have ruled out tires, wheels, and engine. The vibration occurs with or without load (on the road or with back axle raised and wheels off ground).
For the carrier bearing, I tried South Shore Bearing Distributors without success. Apparently the carrier bearing for the 1957 and 1958 models is the hard one to find. I have been told it was also used in some Buicks and some GM trucks. Any suggestions of potential sources welcome.
The mechanic at the driveline rebuilding shop I am using suggested that, if the carrier bearing looks good on a re-test on the bench, he would consider cutting the shafts open and inserting insulation for vibration dampening. He says he has done this before. Any experience or opinions on this idea?

[Carl Schreiber]

John -

Happy New Year!  Just drove home through a horrendous snow storm here in Chicago.  A 30-minute ride turns into an hour and ten, and EVERYBODY drives like an idiot!

2:15 am and I saw your post when I got home - I feel responsible after reccomending South Shore Bearing.  Cleaning out the shop and I found the box the bearing from NAPA came in.  Have them order you P.N. 6008-2RSJ (SKF / NAPA bearing).  

You'll have to remove the carrier bearing and housing - the housing is two stamped pieces that are spot-welded together.  Drill the spot-welds, then carefully separate the housing halves - don't force them open or bend them.  You can tap one side and use button head allens at the spot welds to put the whole thing back together (I seem to remember using #10-32...).  Also, don't try to jam a screwdriver/chisel between the housing halves to the bearing outside race - there's a rubber 'cushion' that surrounds the outer race.
without that rubber cushion, the bearing won't fit back between the housing halves.

If you have any problems, send me an e.mail - I may be able to help.

[59 hearse]

In discussion with members of the 1958 Cadillac Owners Club, it became aparent that there is a very common mystery vibration. It was also mentioned in a published road test of a new '59. The chassis was the same from '57-'62.
The vibration starts around 50 MPH, increases up to 60 MPH, then decreses  with higher speed. It is a pulsing vibration that is heard, rather than felt. I get the vibration with the car on a lift, so I assume it is in the drive train. I have swapped all 4 wheels and tires with my '89 Brougham, with no change in the performance of either car. Rebuilding the driveshaft does not solve the problem.
Have any of you experience such a problem or know what might be the source?
John Shumate
CLC 21509

I have the same vibration in my 59 hearse.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

I have the same vibration in my 59 hearse.   

G'day Kaz,

I had bad vibrations with my '60 CDV, and ended up replacing the Ball Joint at the top of the Diff, the Universal Joints, re-balancing the shafts, and what helped it the most was slotting the holes in the "X" Member that holds the Bearing, and positioning it to the Left by 1/8" and shimming it up another 1/8".

But, with your Hearse, having a Commercial Chassis, does it use the X Member Chassis, or a Parallel Rail Chassis?

Further, I don't think that the Leaf Sprung Rear Ends are as susceptible to out of alignment problems as are the Coil Sprung Rear Ends.

Simple thinks like sagging Transmission Mounts, Engine Mounts and rear end bushes can also make a difference.

You have to remember that when these cars were new, they had vibration problems, and there was a Service Bulletin put out to cover such problems, and there was also a Special Tool constructed for checking and adjusting where necessary.

Bruce.

[59 hearse]

I believe we have this kind of chassis

[59 hearse]

The vibration I have detected seems rythmic and somewhere in the vicinity of tailshaft area.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Thanks Kaz,

First time I have actually seen what the Chassis were like, and it looks liker they were extended in the Centre, at the easiest point.

I would be looking at all points where the Suspension is mounted to the Chassis, Centre Bearing, Universals, and engine and Transmission Mountings.

At least with your car, which hasn't been converted to RHD, everything should be Factory Stock.

Bruce.

[59 hearse]

Thanks Kaz,

First time I have actually seen what the Chassis were like, and it looks liker they were extended in the Centre, at the easiest point.

I would be looking at all points where the Suspension is mounted to the Chassis, Centre Bearing, Universals, and engine and Transmission Mountings.

At least with your car, which hasn't been converted to RHD, everything should be Factory Stock.

Bruce.

Thanks for the direction Bruce. I believe the only thing not stock is the 140 litre fuel tank. A sender unit that works for that ebing essential, as we are filling up all the time just in case. My Dad jokes that taking the hearse in and out the driveway is reason to fill the tank again, but so far not as bad as we thought.
Cadillac specialist looking at some things on the 14th Jan. Until then we can problem solve the easier things.

[yogicr]

Cutting the drive shaft, I don't think it's a good idea. Putting something inside to dampen the sound I don't think is the solution. it's possible sometime in the past perhaps someone may have cut the drive shaft and when they put it back together they didn't balance it. A simple solution to this is put a hose clamp on the drive shaft and keep turning until you feel the vibration go away. This will probably be tough since you have 2 drive shafts unless you determine the sound is coming more from the front then the back. I still think it's probably coming from the carrier barring or the double universal that connects the two drive shafts. I had a 1965 Buick WildCat that had the carrier barring I checked the universals they appeared okay but one of the universals was in fact the cause of the problem. Happy New Year. Let me know if  this helps.

[Quentin Hall Australia]

   Twilight Zone. For years I have noticed an annoying rythmic vibration in my 57 Biarritz , my 59 Biarritz and my 60 conv. Always thru the 50 to 55 mile per hour band. Luckily I can drive on thru it to our 60 mph speed limit but it does get annoying if you are in traffic in the afformentioned band. I originally thought it was the unis in the 57. Did all that.  I thought it was the centre bearing in the 59. (had everything rebuilt and balanced). And the 60 is a completely original but very well looked after vehicle. The 57 and 59 ran conventionals but the 60 is on radials. I always notice it through in the rear view mirror. You can see the vibration cycle. 
   I had a friend in Sydney who I mentioned it to and he too lamented the same problem in either his 57 Brougham or 57 Seville, I can't remember which.  He spent $$$ to no avail.
    Regards. Quentin.
   
   
       

[John Shumate #21509]

Update: I took the shaft out and had it re-tested on the bench. The carrier bearing looked good, but better balancing was in order for the rear shaft. The re-balancing has seriously decreased, but not eliminated, the harmonic vibration. The guy who did it said that he has had experience with 2 peice shafts, although not this model, and he has rebuilt them as one piece shafts with success. He says that the rubber between the 2 shaft pieces fails with age and allows the harmonics. My inclination, at this point, is to find a salvage rear shaft to rebuild as a one piece unit and see if it works. I am reluctant to modify the original shaft.
John Shumate