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Help with 1950 Hydro-Electric pump

Started by peteratcliff CLC# 160, October 15, 2007, 06:32:21 AM

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peteratcliff CLC# 160

I need help to help a lady in Melbourne Australia who has tried EVERYTHING to get her 1950 convertible top to operate with the original 6-volt motor. She is an Aussie CLC member, her husband is a mechanic, she has had the motor rewound twice in Australia and a third time in Florida. System runs trans fluid, has all new cylinders, seat & windows work fine. Hydraulic pressure at the solenoids is within Shop manual range 280psi at the solenoids and solenoids will operate on the bench but not in the car! She has been told no-one has yet show-restored a 50 convert so no-one has restored one of these pumps. Any help or experience appreciated.
Peter Ratcliff
Member #160
Melbourne, Australia

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Peter,

Firstly, is the Wiring original?

6 Volt wiring to that motor will require a heavy Cables AND, a good solid Earth.

What type of system is it?  The Dura, or the Moraine?   Not sure which one Cadillac used.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Philippe M. Ruel

Quote from: peteratcliff on October 15, 2007, 06:32:21 AMseat & windows work fine /.../ solenoids will operate on the bench but not in the car!
My first impression is that the problem is not in the pump because seat and window cylinders use pump pressure to operate.

What happens when convertible top switch is depressed ? No noise ? Solenoid "click" but no noise from the pump ? Pump noise but top not moving ? Top moving too slowly ?
1952 60 Special in France.

Doug Houston

It's me, Peter. Your message got deleted in error, and I was trying to find who it was who had asked this question.

I looked up the Fisher 1949 body manual. The Hydro-Lectric system is the same as on all years, as far as I know.

I think that your problem may be caused by the fact that the car has TRANSMISSION fluid in it, instead of BRAKE fluid.  The window and seat cylinders have much less load on them than the convertible top cylinders.

I'm wondering if the cylinders have rubber piston seals. If so, the seals could live with  brake fluid, because it's a glycol compound, and the shop manual specifies it. If a hydraulic transmission fluid is used, the petroleum based juice will soften the rubber piston seals, and it might be blowing past them. That could explain the top cylinders having no force to operate the top linkage. I have a hunch that someone has damaged the piston seals by using the wrong fluid in them.

NOW, several years ago, Terry Wenger restored a Packard with a Hydro-Lectric system in it. He used silicone brake fluid, so as to get away from glycol fluid attacking the body paint job. Worked well, but he found that it ground up pumps!  It develops that for this purpose, silicone brake fluid has insufficient lubricity for the operation of the pump. He was able to add a brake parts lubricant to the fluid, and all went well after that.

The above is what I wanted to write to you, but my computer had different ideas. Hope I'm redeemed.

peteratcliff CLC# 160

Hi Doug
Yes all is forgiven, and thanks for your thoughtful reply as always. I will re-send you my original email and will of course pass your thoughts on to my friends Jan and Gary. Thank you again.  Peter
Peter Ratcliff
Member #160
Melbourne, Australia

peteratcliff CLC# 160

Phillip - thank you for your prompt reply. I will pass it to the owners of this car and se what they think. They have some illness in the family just at the moment, so I may not get an immediate response, but I will get back to you. Thank you again. (Gee it's fun being in the middle of this!)

Peter
Peter Ratcliff
Member #160
Melbourne, Australia

denniscaddy

Since the windows and seat work the problem is not with the pump.  It is likely in the solenoid/valve under the rear seat. I controls the direction of the fluid flow to the top up or topdown side of the top pistons.  They are notorious.  May need cleaning, or rebuilding.  Be careful working on it...they are very difficult to find, and very expensive, so don't ruin yours!  Dennis
CLC 3676
1941 Fleetwood 60S
2017 CT6

Terry Wenger CLC #1800

Peter:

Since there is good pressure at the seats and windows, I would agree with Dennis, the valve is bad and needs to be rebuilt. I recently did a '47 convertible and was able to  get the valve working after careful disassembly and cleaning.

Terry

ghelseth

Thanks to all who helped me get my pump working and cylinders replaced. Now I have the same problem as these people did. I can't get my dual solenoid switch to work when installed on the car.  I have removed the 2 tiny valves and cleaned them before reinstallation. The rear windows work fine, so there is pressure to the valve assy. The solenoids click/retract as they are supposed to but the valves don't retract. Is there supposed to be a connection between the valves and the solenoids, or are the valves just supposed to drop down when the solenoids retract? Or are the solenoids also electromagnets that pull the valves down? Any help is appreciated. I've had it apart twice and can't figure out how something so simple is becoming such a problem.

Quentin Hall Australia

G'day Peter, I assume you are talking about Janet and Gary? In any event I thought I'd answered to a question the same only this week but now cannot find it on the forum?? It can't be the trans fluid as I rebuilt my valve ie rewound coils and  replaced o rings and even made a new stainless retainer and it worked fine for me (oh and  cleaned out the brake fluid crystalised gunk.)
    Though mine is 12v on 53 Eldo.  You don't suppose it was recoiled without thought for the 6v to 12v difference?? Perhaps it is a 12v solendoid struggling on 6v? Check that the body doesn't have 12 v stamped on it.  Anything can happen in 50 years and do I recall that the top didn't work for many years and that is why the rear casting got cracked trying to pull it up?   
      I am not saying I have one for sale but I was lucky to score two NOS ones very reasonably recently. I do have a couple pulled apart that I will go and inspect shortly to see if I can see any obvious reasons for trouble.
      I do remember when I was cleaning them that there is a passage that gets blocked almost to the point of it being undetectable of being there. I was just poking around with a bit of wire and it appeared. Like I said best I go and get one of the apart ones and have a better look. Regards. Q

Quentin Hall Australia

Sorry I realised that I just replied to the original post from 2007. In any event , cheers Peter R if you are reading. Basis of my reply still stands tho.

Q

gary hazeldene

Hi my wife has a 1950 cadillac convertible and I had Lots of trouble with the whole system. It has taken me 5 years to get the system correct. What would you like to know?

The solenoid under the rear seat are electro magnetic and they must operate correctly one open one shut to put pressure to the rams. The rear windoiws are only as bi-pass feed on the top of the solenoid block. Hydro lectric in the states can rewind the solenoids if they are faulty.

You should be able to bench test the unit to see whether the solenoids are opening and shutting correctly. On the bench they must have a loud audible click and opoerate very quickly. I also found system to have problems with the type of fluids used I have found the best product to be a mineral oil brake fluid which wont allow for any corrosion.
I also have had trouble with the roof hinges where the rams join on to and they had a bad habit of cracking - had been repaired many times and in the end I had new ones cast and which makes the roof assembly work exactly correct. If you know of any one looking for hinges let me know as I have had several sets made. It is something that we tried to outsource in the US new old stock or good 2nd hand to no avail. We have fully restored our roof pump and if you need any more info get back in touch. garyjanet@optusnet.com.au