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Part of the 59 Biarritz Survivor Roster?

Started by Matt CLC #18621, November 01, 2007, 08:24:41 AM

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Matt CLC #18621


bill refakis

Have that one way back,these guys paid a stupid price at auction in the spring,and have now marked it up 30% welcome to 1989!!!!

eldo59

There's going to be some sorry people around when prices come back down to earth.
Mauro Bonfitto

veesixteen

We went through this already in 1988-89.  In just ten years (1978-88) the top five Cadillacs went "over the moon" ('53 Eldo, '59 Biarritz and '60 Biarritz).  Course, I'm not complaining, since I found a buyer, then, for my '60 Eldo Biarritz.

You think these prices are crazy?  How about NINE GRAND paid last week for an INCOMPLETE set of the 1957-58 Eldorado Brougham vanities (with a repro cigarette box, a less-than-perfect owner's manual and NO Arpege perfume or atomizer)?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120176386096
__________________________
Yann Saunders, CLC #12588
Compiler and former keeper of "The Cadillac Database"
aka "MrCadillac", aka "Veesixteen"

straitcad

compared to the prices late 60's muscle cars are fetching these days, 59 Eldorados are still extremly undervalued  ;) 
BTW: Has anybody seen this one? http://www.cadillacworld.net/ZANETTI1959ELDORADO.html   

1959 Eldorado Biarritz
1961 Eldorado Biarritz
2006 STS

Bill Refakis

I agree with georg,these cars are actually not overpriced,my reference was to the hyper-charged market that reminded me of 89,guys would buy a car for 60,go fpr a drink,and park it for sale again at 90.I am sure as then,it will blow up again,the 59 BIarritz actually has not run up all that much,and as I am sure you all know,if I give you a #4 car for one dollar,you will spend a good 200+,and still not get it perfect!! Now,for an update,I am in the end stage of the project,and there are fewer cars than I had thought there would be,300-325 at most it looks like,I will have the first set of color and equipment runs broken down by spring,and BUCKET SEAT OWNERS(myself included)take note 40% or so were produced with buckets!!

Matt CLC #18621

Is this the 59 Biarritz in Leake's brochure that sold for $194K?

Matt

KURT MUELLER

1.000.000.- for a 59 Biarritz ???
Why should the car the notorious Doc Sab is selling be the rarest Biarritz in the world? There are a couple of them with all factory options and bucket seats still out there, I saw some of them at meetings - even at some GN´s in the past. All of them had their options listed on their body plate as well.
His statement that only 70 cars with bucket seats were produced is ridiculous as well. Some real experts know that about 40% of Biarritzes were equipped with bucket seats. Welcome to reality!
George, I saw your great and informative website about your 1959 Biarritz and if I remember correctly your car has all the options as well?


Kurt

Paul Zanetti

#8
Quote from: KURT MUELLER on November 18, 2007, 07:17:43 PM
1.000.000.- for a 59 Biarritz ???
Why should the car the notorious Doc Sab is selling be the rarest Biarritz in the world? There are a couple of them with all factory options and bucket seats still out there, I saw some of them at meetings - even at some GN´s in the past. All of them had their options listed on their body plate as well.
His statement that only 70 cars with bucket seats were produced is ridiculous as well. Some real experts know that about 40% of Biarritzes were equipped with bucket seats. Welcome to reality!
George, I saw your great and informative website about your 1959 Biarritz and if I remember correctly your car has all the options as well?


Kurt

Dear Kurt,

This car you refer to is the only known surviving 1959 Eldorado Biarritz documented and authenticated - with all the most sought after, desired factory ordered and supplied specifications and options (triple Persian Sand - paint, interior and top, bucket seats and fully factory optioned including air). If you read Doc Sab's web page at all you would understand that.

This car can be backed up with the VIN tag and the build sheet, all supplied on Doc Sab's web page.

The car also is completely documented from new, with the original factory Warranty book, showing original owner (a well known purple heart recipient and Las Vegas Casino Owner and manager), original dealer, VIN, date of delivery, place of delivery etc, and all owners since, when the car was bought and sold (each year it has traded hands since new) up to present day and all prices paid each time it sold over the past 48 years. The current owner has had the car for 14 years, and it has recently undergone a correct frame-on restoration.

Many cars have been 'duplicated' over the years post-factory to emulate this car. That is, bucket seats have been added, or air, or other factory options customised later, or painted from another colour to the more desirable and popular Persian Sand.

But this is the real deal. Nothing fake about it.

And it's the only one known in the world.

When Danbury Mint approached Yann Saunders to seek his advice on producing a limited edition model of the ultimate Cadillac, Yann recommended they produce a triple Persian Sand, bucket seat, fully optioned 1959 Eldorado Biarritz. They made 5000 of those now collectable limited editions.

But there is only one real one existing.

Being America's most iconic luxury car in its rarest and most iconic form, it is indeed difficult to put a price on it. Many lesser cars (without the same iconic status or the symbolism of American automotive success and excess) have fetched far more than the asking price of this car. I recommend you check the past few years' results of some of the top auction houses (RM Auctions, Barrett Jackson etc).

In the interest of disclosure, I am the owner of the car.

Kurt, like so many uninformed, self-appointed experts who have contacted me to criticise my car (and recently to the knowledgable Doc Sab), yet rely on no documents, facts or evidence, you have made some bold claims you cannot support. If you can, I cordially invite you to do so.

You say, There are a couple of them with all factory options and bucket seats still out there, I saw some of them at meetings - even at some GN´s in the past. All of them had their options listed on their body plate as well.

Can you back it up then, Kurt?

I think not.

If I got a dollar for all the rumours about 'other' existing identical cars roaming the earth, or from people who claim to have seen them at shows, or whose father owned one etc.....I would be a very rich man. I have learned to place those who "swear I saw...this or that here or there...." (but are never specific and never have clear photos or videos) in the same category as those who swear they saw a flying saucer, the Lochness monster or bigfoot. They never back it up with evidence.

And you guessed it....yep, there are never photos of these other cars existing. Isn't that odd?

Whenever I have been at car shows, many participants and enthusiasts have cameras and are busily clicking away. Yet, nobody has ever taken a photo of the mythical dozens of identical cars to mine. Amazing.

With the proliferation of the internet, there should be at least dozens of these photos floating around. But there aren't. Why could that be?

Wouldn't a triple Persian Sand, bucket seat, fully optioned 1959 Biarritz be just about the most photographed car at a Cadillac show? Or even talked about?

But I've only heard about the mythical one(s) someone remembers once (such as your post, Kurt). With no specifics.

Who owns them?

Just about everyone in the club knows everyone else. Who could these mysterious people be who drive up to Cadillac shows unnanounced in a triple Persian Sand etc....Cadillac without anyone knowing the car or the person, and then these mystery men from some far  off town that nobody knows drive off at the end of the day with nobody taking a photo or talking to them to learn who they are? Spooky eh?

You refer to 'experts'  in regard to the bucket seats.

I accept there are 40% of existing (ie. known survivors) 1959 Biarritzs with factory bucket seats, because that figure has been supported by the only person I respect who has researched and documented all known survivors.

But, that does not mean 40% of all factory produced '59 Biarritzs had bucket seats. Less than 400 are known to survive to today - and are documented. So that is, 160 cars known to have factory bucket seats. Perhaps the remaining 920, or so, did not have bucket seats? Unlikely, but not improbable. No one will know unless someone takes the time to go through every build sheet of every one of 150,000 or so 1959 Cadillacs produced. And nobody has done that yet, to my knowledge. So whether it's 70, or 160 or 528 (ie. 40% of 1320 produced) is not the point.

I have never stated my car is one of 70, or 160 or 528.

It's one of one (see above first paragraph).

There has been one respected and acknowledged expert who has invested a liftetime's work into documenting and authenticating all known surviving 1959 Eldorado Biarritzs. Since the mid 1970s he has scoured Hemmings Motor News, the Cadillac La Salle Club, and in more recent years has used the internet to contact all known owners of 1959 Eldorado Biarritzs. His detective work is incredible and admirable. There are fewer than 400 survivors. And he is currently working on a comprehensive website of all the known surviving 1959 Eldorado Biarritzs. His name and reputation is well known to many Cadillac Club members and owners worldwide, Bill Refakis.

It was Bill who contacted me and informed me that mine is the only known survivor with all these most sought after options and specs. I will accept the word of the world's most respected expert on this subject.

Due to the many 'fakes' out there, the old joke is, that of the 1320 Eldorado Biarritzs produced there about 2500 survivors.

Over the years, I have received a few occasional offers from potential buyers to 'name your price'. The car has never previously been for sale in the past 14 years since I have owned it, so previous expressions of interest to buy were politely declined by me.

To me, the car is priceless.

I have had a lot of enjoyment from the car. However, I am now going in a different direction and the car rarely gets a look in. She only goes out for a drive every couple off weekends, simply to keep the fluids turning over and the battery charged. So I am testing the market. I will consider a sale at the right price. But as I don't have to sell, there are days when I feel shouldn't. I just don't look at her as much any more and she just sits there. Maybe someone else should look after her. I am sure we have all gone through that phase.

This car is not for the uneducated, the self-appointed two-bob critic or the envious with no funds, who want to take pot shots. It is for the informed collector, shrewd enough to know what this car is, it's historic symbolism and current and future value. If that's not you, you'd be better off doing yourself a favour and keep your uninformed comments to yourself, without respect. This car is for that one special individual who appreciates it. And who has the funds. My experience with people who do have the funds is that they do not sit around and take shots at other peoples' cars. They get to where they are because they are informed - and know their stuff.

Finally, you refer to George's car as being identical to mine. George, I saw your great and informative website about your 1959 Biarritz and if I remember correctly your car has all the options as well?

Triple Persian Sand (most desirable colour) with ALL the options?

DO you remember correctly?

Mmmm....maybe not. And that's part of the problem.

People who go on the record with bold claims, but don't remember correctly.

Ask George if his car is identical to mine. You will find it is not. I won't tell you the difference(s). That's for you to do a little more digging on.

For more information on this car you can read about it at : www.zanetti.net.au/priscilla.html

At this webpage you will also find all evidence of the build sheet, VIN tag, Warranty Book and more.

Kurt, I hope this clarification is helpful to you, and I welcome any further light you can shed on all the other identical factory 1959 Eldorado Biarritz you claim are out there. I am not saying there aren't any. I am just saying that there aren't any known, as per the advice from Bill. Be sure to let Bill know about them so he can check the build sheets (and the VIN tags you think you saw but didn't photograph). And please be sure to place such info, photos etc on this forum so we can all be satisfied with your claims.

Welcome to reality, Kurt (your words).

With kind regards,

Paul Zanetti
1959 Eldorado Biarritz
www.zanetti.net.au

Bill Refakis #3171

Happy thanksgiving,truth is,in 25 years of research,all the way back to,and including yann's roster from the early eighties,I have only found one complete intact car, triple persian,with buckets and factory a/c,e-h-k body tag,the depth of my research is well known,and non-commercial,and as of today,paul's car is alone! Value??? they sold a painting at auction last week for north of 47 million,so who can say,if you have the money,and want ,and appreciate owning a unique item,it should not be the price,but the opportunity that is important,take care,and of course,I still need all and any info on survivors!! Bill Refakis

Paul Zanetti

#10

Thank you for that post,  and support, Bill. Although I realise you didn't do it as any favour to me, but as a reiteration of the historical truth.

I may have seemed annoyed in my previous post, but I have got tired of people who slag off at other people or their hobbies or whatever with no good reason or basis, and with no knowledge. They only risk making fools of themselves and creating bad blood. What goes on in their head?

I have actually been told by people who I respect, that if my car is what it is puported to be, the asking price is reasonable, if not cheap. Around where I live on the Queensland (Australia) Gold Coast cashed up buyers are purchasing several beach front homes. knocking them all down to build one house. One person who floated his tourism business and has gone from nothing to multi millionaire in 15 years - has bought 5 of these beach front homes at around $6m - $10m each to build just the one house, tennis courts polls, recreation area etc. What's a lazy $1m for a cool rare car in his garage? He wouldn't even notice $1m gone. But gee, he'd have the best car on the street, eh?

This part of the Gold Coast (best place in Australia to live - a combo of California, Miami and Hawaii, without the traffic headaches) is littered with people like him. Young, wealthy, but all seem to be driving new cars (that devalue) .

I took the 59 Eldo out for a drive this morning to the gym. I came back asking myself, " Do I really want to sell?"

That conflict goes on every couple of weeks....

The looks, the smiles and the thumbs up - I will never tire of that. An instant conversation starter.

regards,

Paul Zanetti


1959 Eldorado Biarritz
www.zanetti.net.au

Paul Zanetti



Oh dear, Lou,

Didn't you read anything I posted above Bill's post?

I deal in facts.

Not 'what ifs', 'maybes', 'might bes', 'coulda', 'shoulda' 'woulda'....etc

What if a comet the size of the planet Neptune hits Earth tomorrow?

Then all our property prices, artwork, cars, stocks etc would be worth at least 'half what they're worth today'.

I mean, really, buddy. What you are proposing is that we all should freeze in fear 'in case something happens tomorrow".

Until that day comes, I'll deal with the facts.

And finally, does that mythical car you refer to that nobody even knows exists yet, have all the original factory documentation and known history?

If it does exist that is....spooky again. (Insert Twilight Zone theme here).

Knowledgable people (and people without limited funds) deal in reality. Not ethereal hypothesis.

Paul Zanetti





1959 Eldorado Biarritz
www.zanetti.net.au

homeonprunehill

11-23-07
Southpaw, Paul, I have read that in 1937,1938, that Cadillac only made about 16,300+ vehicles of all series and ONLY 2,711 of the body style were made. Why is the re-sale on these cars is so low?
GooD Luck,JIM P.S. Paul, I hope you can get $2m for it.
USED,ABUSED AND MISUSED CADILLACS AND LA SALLES

Doc Sab

Quote from: KURT MUELLER on November 18, 2007, 07:17:43 PM
1.000.000.- for a 59 Biarritz ???
Why should the car the notorious Doc Sab is selling be the rarest Biarritz in the world? There are a couple of them with all factory options and bucket seats still out there, I saw some of them at meetings - even at some GN´s in the past. All of them had their options listed on their body plate as well.
His statement that only 70 cars with bucket seats were produced is ridiculous as well. Some real experts know that about 40% of Biarritzes were equipped with bucket seats. Welcome to reality!
George, I saw your great and informative website about your 1959 Biarritz and if I remember correctly your car has all the options as well?


Kurt

Kurt,
I take offense to you using the word "NOTORIOUS" when describing ME.... I have 100 % perfect International feedback.

If YOU have a beef with me.. I'd like to know why.

I have built one of the largest Cadillac websites on the planet... for one purpose.... to share the enjoyment and love I share for our cars... with each other. Along the way I have restored multitudes  Cads for myself.. and others.. and I continue to have perfect relations with any and ALL of my previous clients.

I have NEVER ripped a person off.. I have always given more than I have received.. and I continue to go beyond what's agreed in order to do whatever it is I do... right.

I  would like to know why you have decided to make ME the brunt of your comment for Paul Zanetti's Cadillac. It is NOT my car. I am representing HIM. You should learn some well needed International manners.

Don't drag me in the mud.
Doc Sab
ps
I'd like to see a retraction of that comment.
Chris

Doc Sab

      Kurt,
I take offense to you using the word "NOTORIOUS" when describing ME.... I have 100 % perfect International feedback.

If YOU have a beef with me.. I'd like to know why.

I have built one of the largest Cadillac websites on the planet... for one purpose.... to share the enjoyment and love I share for our cars... with each other. Along the way I have restored multitudes  Cads for myself.. and others.. and I continue to have perfect relations with any and ALL of my previous clients.

I have NEVER ripped a person off.. I have always given more than I have received.. and I continue to go beyond what's agreed in order to do whatever it is I do... right.

I  would like to know why you have decided to make ME the brunt of your comment for Paul Zanetti's Cadillac. It is NOT my car. I am representing HIM. You should learn some well needed International manners.

Don't drag me in the mud.
Doc Sab
ps
I'd like to see a retraction of that comment.
                                                                                                                                         
Chris

Paul Zanetti

#15
Quote from: South_paw on November 23, 2007, 10:49:36 PM
Paul,
.... The fact is you don't know for sure that yours is the only one, that is a fact!
Lou 




Lou,

Do you understand English?

What part of 'known surviving' don't you understand?

Print out my original post with detailed explanation, take it to an English teacher and ask them to interpret for you the definition of 'known survivor'.

Then we can get back to dealing with 'facts'. Not the unrelated wishy-washy theories, spin and alternative universe scenarios you are dealing in.

Alas, like the arm-chair critics you have aligned yourself with, who argue without facts or basis, all you have done is read what you want to, given it a twist, cherry-picked what you want and regergitated some reply that is so off the mark, to suit your own agenda (ie. belittle the car because it's someone else's - not yours). And once in a hole, keep digging.

To resolve that problem, just for you Lou, I will accept $2m for the car (special price for you), so then, when that other ethereal unknown car that nobody knows about (i.e. 'unknown non-survivor') surfaces, and before it gets hit by a comet, your car will still be worth $1m.

As I said, this car is for the knowledgable (intelligent) collector without limited funds. Somehow, I just don't think that's you, Lou. Maybe it's just a gut feeling. But my gut feel has often stood me in good stead.

As for the top, if you dealt in facts, you would know the answer to your own question. I really prefer to reply in less sarcastic tones, Lou, but when you keep on and on digging yourself into a deeper hole, I just can't help inserting a little humour. It helps to put a little levity in the debate.

But happy to reply intelligently to any other informed person who deals in 'facts'. Not 'what-ifs'.

Best regards,

Paul Zanetti




1959 Eldorado Biarritz
www.zanetti.net.au

Paul Zanetti

#16


PS - I have to support Chris 'Doc Sab' Sabatino here.

I have known Chris casually for some years now and I have found Chris to be unmatched in his passion, enthusiasm and love for  Cadillacs of the classic finned era. Further, he is respected and appreciated from all corners of the globe. I personally have purchased chrome wire wheels from Chris earlier this year, and he went far beyond the call of duty in price and service, without request. He is highly professional and has ethics any retail trader worldwide would envy. That's just Chris's way.

Of all the many people and outlets I had at my disposal to offer or market my car, what option did I use?

There was only one person who sprung to mind. 'Doc Sab'. I could have used ebay, this website, or various big name auction houses. But my trust in Chris's professionalism led me to him first.

The word 'notorious' would never be one I would ever even consider when describing Chris.

A few I can think of.....'helpful', 'friendly', 'passionate', 'professional', 'ethical',....just a few that come to mind.

Paul Zanetti


1959 Eldorado Biarritz
www.zanetti.net.au

Doc Sab

Get em Paul....
Thanx for sticking up for me... :D
Doc Sab
Chris

Bill Refakis

HI Guys,Doc sab is a good guy,loves cadillac's,yes,of course,in theroy it is possible a duplicate to paul's ,but do not forget that in my complete from 71 up old cars weekly,hmn from 67,cars and parts from 68,one was never advertised with these options,for some reason,triple persians are common,but not with ac,mine of course,is triple persian buckets cruise eye,no ac,there are a few unigue( to this point)color and trim combos,but untill I have all 1320,we can not be sure,enjoy the cars for what they are,and respect paul's right to ask whatever he may desire for his car,it is very special,and if you think it is too high,make an offer,or simply pass! Respect,bottom line!

Doc Sab

Thanx Bill...For the nice words!!

I also agree with you on Pauls Eldo... IT'S HIS CAR.... HE CAN ASK FOR THE WORLD... if people do not like it it.. they should just nicely move on... if they like it.. make an offer. There has to be International manners.. especially among a group of like minded friends... who just happen to live around the world. We are a Cadillac World.

Remember.. those "E" Bodied Mopars of the 70's... were noted as crap cars when they were built... but with great motors.. Now look.. these cars have brought MILLIONS auction...

Here..we have 59 Eldos.. that are restored... that were UNarguably the best things America EVER produced out of Detroit. The design was unsurpassed... the quality of materials.. unsurpassed... and the motor pumped out 345 horses.. with Tri-carbs too!

If there ever was a car that was worthy of hitting the MILLION DOLLAR Status Club... it should be the 59 Eldo.. and the rare equipped convertibles.. that also came with Tri-Carbs and a factory proven build sheet.

If there was a better car made than a 59 Biarritz... I don't know of it.. It was the "pinky ring" of the American Car Industry.. and I feel Paul has a car worthy of his asking price... otherswise, I would NOT place it on my well travel Cadillac Website. www.CadillacWorld.net

Doc Sab
Chris