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1972 Eldo HOT start problem

Started by Richard Pope, December 10, 2007, 03:27:46 PM

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Richard Pope

All,
About to dig into this problem and just making sure I have all the possibilities covered. Any help/advice/warning appreciated.
the problem: after running up to temp the car is very hard to start (won't turn over or turns over veeeerrry slowly). If it has been running for 20+ minutes you have to wait 20 minutes before it will crank. It fires within a couple of pistons when it will turn over. Good battery.
So I will be checking the crank case vventilation and for vapor lock. My carb won;t hold much fuel in the bowl so it may just be evaporating in the carb from the heat. Any thing else i should check?

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Richard,

Could be a number of things, but firstly, see if you can get hold of a Volt Meter and put it between the terminals of the Battery, and then observe the Voltage Drop when you hit the Starter Motor.

If it doesn't drop much, and the Starter won't crank, then you have a poor Connection.

If the Voltage drops right off, then you have either a poor Battery or a Starter that is drawing TOO much current.

I would firstly be suspecting terminals, then possible the Starter Brushes could be worn out.

How fast does the Starter Motor turn the engine over when starting from cold?

How good is the Earth, or Grounding Strap and connection/s on the Engine and Body?

Lots of things to check, but it could be something simple.

Lastly, how long has the problem been going on, or has it just started, pardon the pun.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

TJ Hopland

Bruce has many good questions.  I will sit back and wait for the answers and then see if I have anything to add.   My 73 had starting problems but never cranking speed issues unless the battery was almost dead.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Richard Pope

Thanks for all the suggestions.
Here are some replies to those questions:
The starter turns fine when cold.
I did check to make sure the connections are tight - but I have not cleaned them and may need to do so.
Jumping the car when hot has little effect - none when really hot; there is no 'clicking' like on a low battery - just nothing at all
I try the voltmeter test this weekend - I didn't think of that

I'm leaning toward the weak starter brushes because of the 'fine when cold' but 'struggles when warm' effect.

I probably won't get to this until this weekend. So if you do not see an update for a while I am not ignoring the forum just busy with the holiday and 2 boys in sports...

Dennis DiNorcia #19071

I had a 1986 Olds Regency that had the same problem. I was told that the heat shield protecting the starter was removed some time ago and was causing the starter to overheat. When the car was cold it started great. When hot it cranked over like a weak battery. After it burned out the starter I had a heavy duty started installed and the heat shield replaced and the problem went away. I don't know if the Eldo has a heat shield but I would definitely look into the starter as being the culprit.

John Morris #23947

The Quadrajet Carb is notorious for the fuel bowl developing leaks after about 20 years and draining into the intake after sitting awhile. This makes for difficult morning starts even if it cranks over like a demon. If your car fires right up in the morning after sitting a few days without excessive cranking, this is not the problem. The Quadrajet float being stuck at the TOP can shut of fuel supply, the bowl won't fill. Stuck at bottom, it floods badly. Common with these Quads. Amazingly, rapping the carb hard a few times can unstuck the float, and the idle smoothes out!! I agree about the starter/solenoid getting too hot from the exhaust manifold, very very common on GM cars. The heat shield or an asbestos cloth wired around the starter/solenoid assembly cures that. You should replace the solenoid 1st as it's likely fried.   
71 Olds 98 LS, 66 Fairlane 500 XL Convertible, 55 Packard Clipper Super, 58 Edsel Ranger, 72 Cheyenne Super, many 49-60 parts cars, abandoned "House Of Doom" full of 49-60 parts. Huge piles of engine parts, brackets, tin, Hydramatic & Jetaway parts,  thousands of stainless moldings, dozens of perfect sedan doors.

greg surfas 15634

Richard,
If you have checked all the cables, and checked the connections at the battery, at the starter and the ground strap is good, tight and connected you have just one thing left. The starter. My 1972 eldo is just about the hottest "normal" engine I've ever owned.  It can and does cook all the electrical devices in close proximity.  If the engine has trouble turning over when warm (hot) and you have checked all the electrical wires and connections my first choice would be to try a good rebuilt starter.  I have had excellent luck with AC Delco rebuilts and although they can be more costly than discount auto stores I like things to keep on working.
Greg Surfas

walt chomosh #23510

Richard,
  I'm with Greg in reguards to using a"quality"starter.Also,NAPA has #1 gage cables of various lengths(factory is #4 gage I believe)to improve starts even more.I'll bet for every 10 starters "overhauled"only one might be up to standards!Summit has various starter heat shields which may also aid your problem....walt 

TJ Hopland

If you are looking for BIG battery cables check your local Fleet and Farm type of place.  One of our local ones stocks 00 gauge cables in various lengths for just a bit more than the typical parts store crap.  They are only top post but since most batteries tend to be dual these days its not a big deal.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

TJ Hopland

Another thought is if its like my 73 the NEG cable goes to the frame somewhat under the battery tray where it is prone to corrosion.  With the cable going to the frame the ground strap to the motor becomes VERY important.  IIRC on my 73 its a big braided cable somewhere near the starter.  If thats missing or in bad shape the starter can be trying to ground through other wires and things like driveshafts.  Early on with mine I had some starting issues (11 years ago so I dont remember the details) so I ended up running a second battery cable from the lug on the frame to the alternator bracket just to make sure I was getting things connected.   Im guessing that you have a starter issue but maybe if when this happens again you can try hooking jumper cables from the NEG side of the battery to the engine somewhere just to verify that thats not at least part of the problem.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Richard Pope

Thanks all,
The carb does leak down after a day - so I know it needs work; but I drive it so infrequently I just have got in the habit of priming it by hand when I want to go for a drive. As long as I stop for lunch (give it time to cool down) it always fires right up.
I agree with the heat generated from this beast. It does not have a heat shield and I have thought of making one if one was never installed from the factory. I just haven't had time to check my part sheets to see if there was one originally. I like the idea of the insultation wrap - and I need to order siomething from Summit before they think something happened to me.
I agree with the quality issue. I always try to buy quality as I only like to fix things once. I also a little anal about replacing apples for apples - so AC Delco will be the way  Ig o if the start is bad.
I do have the original braided ground strap, but converted my battery cables to top post to accomidate a quick-disconnect / battery tender (no room for this with side posts with the cramped battery tray area. I may upgrade these cables as suggested. 00 seems pretty big, but I can see how line resistance would be reduced.

The Tassie Devil(le)

I have found the best way to get good Battery Cables is to simply use heavy duty Welding Cable, and cut to whatever length required, and then install the ends required to terminate.

If you don't have access to a proper "Crimping" tool, and who has for such large terminals, especially the Starter Motor end, a Vice and 1/4" drill bit work just as well.

Insert the bared end of the wire into the terminal, place the terminal in a vice, with the 1/4" drill shank between the opposite jaw and half way down the end to be crimped, and wind the vice up tight.   This makes for a nice tight crimp.   Then, if you still want more, fill the end of the terminal up with solder.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

greg surfas 15634

Hey Guys,
Cadillac spent a fortune in those days developing and engineering systems for their vehicles.  The cable sizes (lengths and wire sizes) were all taken into consideration.  If the correct replacements are used and installed correctly, there should be no problem.  I bought my '72 Eldo new, and am still using the  original cables.  I've had to replace the starter and the batteries (a few times), but by keeping the cables tight, clean and routed as the factory did, the car works just fine.  It starts hot and cold.
Greg

Richard Pope

After having to wait a week for a replacement starter - I finally have everything back together. Basically I had multiple issues:
-Starter just plum wore out
-a couple of wires where the insultation was missing/rubbed off
-wiring that had been spliced but witha smaller gaguge than required

So I fixed it all and everything seems to be fine after my original test. i will give it a better shake-down today as the weather is much better.

Thanks for all the help and advice.

Richard

76eldo

It was pretty common for the wires running to the starter to become worn and brittle due to the hot/cool cycles, and being quite greasy too.  The insulation would break down, and the wires had to be cut back and properly spliced, soldered, and shrink wrapped.

Regarding starters, many times, a starter rebuilder will basically install new brushes, bushings, clean up the armature, and paint the starter case.

Replacing the field coils and insulators will make your starter perform like new.  I restored a 1936 Packard a few years ago, a total ground up, nut and bold restoration.  I had the electricals rebuilt by a shop that has been around for about 50 years doing automotive electrical work.  They rebuilt the starter, and even though the car ran hot, it always cranked over rapidly, hot or cold.  That is rare for a 6 volt Packard, where hot cranking is almost always a problem.  Another thing that helped is that i installed a 00 gauge ground strap running from a bell housing bolt to a trans mount bolt on the frame.  This gave the engine a great ground, directly to the frame, in addition to the stock light gauge mesh ground strap.  I was able to hide all of this within the X frame, so it was basically invisible.

Glad you got it sorted out, and have the car running properly.
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado