1968 Eldorado 472 oil pan gasket and freeze plugs replacement - engine overhaul

[IcebearLars]

Thanks Roger - thought that can be done w/o braking anything (and get it together if needed again). Kind of hesitant to do that with a fully functional and running part - what happens if I just let it turn idle as it is with just the belt connected but the two tubes marked disconnected, eliminate the tee at the back of the carb plus plug the openings in the heads?



If I do so do I have to close some openings that no debris is getting into it and seizes it up?
Would want to keep the pump in a functional state until I get an idler pulley solution instead.
Have not looked in detail into the bracket needed for a "own deletion kit solution" but AFAIK the available deletion kits has risen from 250 to 400dish bucks (which is insane) - for that money I can get a aluminum bracket assembly with some bearings and the original pulley on top done from a local machine shop.

Therefore my question about running it just idle w/o breaking the inside contents of the pump.

UPDATE
Never mind - sometimes one just have to have luck in his live - checked the pics of the spare engine I bought years ago and it wears a smog pump - will check if that turns and decide then which one get slaughtered     

[Roger Zimmermann]

Well, I did not hesitate a long time to render my AIR pump inoperative. That system is crap anyway: with about 20K miles, the diverter valve was defective. The guy who did some work on the car before it was shipped to Switzerland organized another diverter valve from a guy who is restoring them. It was defective too. Brian (the man who prepared my car) told the supplier about the failure just to hear that the diverters he is repairing are set to expel the air only in the atmosphere and no more into the exhaust system!  I also disabled the vacuum signal to the pump (I don't know is you have it too), plugged the rubber hose to avoid exhaust gases into the pump as they would destroy the bearings and I'm happy!
By the way, in 1980 I bought a new 1980 Olds Cutlass. One of the first things I did was to remove the AIR pump and all the hoses and tubes, installed a shorter belt (even if the car was still covered by the warranty) and never looked back.
At the end, it's your car, you have to decide yourself what you want to do...

[IcebearLars]

Updated post #60 

[Roger Zimmermann]

And maybe you can rescue the cross tube too!
About the questions you had: to respond correctly, I should have a deep look into the shop manual. without that deep look,  I would just plug the vacuum hose, plug the heads and put a grille at the outlet of the pump. If you plug it completely, you will get a problem because the pump will continue to do its job: pump air.

[IcebearLars]

Got you - unfortunately on the spare engine the cross tube was rotted even more so both sides gave up while trying to get them out of the holes.

Have already 10 of these bad guys in my cart at Rockauto and will change the rear ones as well as plugging the front in each head:
Expansion/Freeze Plugs 45/64"

Got the information from this YouTube Video

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

The trouble with just removing the AIR pump is that the Alternator Belt does not align with the Water Pump and Crankshaft pulley grooves.

GM did this so people couldn't easily bypass the AIR system.

When I removed mine, I simply moved the Alternator rearwards to a position where the Pulley was in alignment.

I will post my pictures tomorrow.

Bruce.   

[IcebearLars]

That is a smart way to get the alternator in line with the water pump/crankshaft pulley - guess your belt is then running like this



Is the driven circumstance/surface the belt approaches the water pump pulley enough to turn it always w/o slipping? Looks like it is (only) about 1/3 of the circumstance the belt is in contact with the pulley? On the second view the original belt setup is not approaching that much more surface at the water pump pulley - so I guess that's still enough not to slip?

And how did you manage to sat the alternator back - some distance stands or thicker washers?
Looking forward for your pics man!

AND - if you have the chance to tell which belt (brand and length) you have used

[IcebearLars]

There is not a ton of space behind the alternator in my case - hope that can work getting it back enough

[Cadman-iac]

  Hey Lars,

  The nice thing about the 1970 pulley setup is that your alternator remains in the same location. The water pump pulley is shaped so that it runs in the same plane as the alternator does, thus eliminating the smog pump and allowing the belt to run on the crank, water pump, and alternator. But you still have to use the 70 crank pulley for this to work. It has no groove where the original smog belt went, but does have one that lines up with the alternator.
Hope you can locate these as it makes life much easier. No need to fight with that smog pump and related items.

  Rick

P.S. when you are looking for these two pulleys, the easiest way to identify them is the shape. The water pump pulley appears almost flat, and the crank pulley still has 3 belt grooves, but there's a gap between the front one for the alternator and the other two for the A/C and P/S belts.
Hope this helps.

[IcebearLars]

Hi Rick,

thanks for the clarification, but for me out of Germany its very cumbersome to collect this kind of special parts in the US - not that I am not often enough in the US for business or can't find offered parts which probably are what they are offered (the pulleys of a '70 Caddy), but more to have the hassle with letting them ship here before I know they are the right parts - and vice versa - if they are not the right ones having to fight with the seller about that on a distance.
Hope that makes sense.

[IcebearLars]

The longer I look on the picture in post #66 the more it gets clear that the easiest option would be to bring the crankshaft pulley currently engages with the smog pump and water pump further out to get in line with the current water pump & alternator pulley.
If I recall it right the crankshaft pulley is 2fold - the part for engaging with the AC &steering pump and the part for the smog & water pump.
What do guys think about a spacer made of aluminum with a groove at the back to get centered with the lip on the crankshaft hub and have the same lip on the top to get the (then further out) crankshaft pulley centered as well?
Would just need to have longer bolts to attach everything together to the crankshaft hub again.

Something like that:

 

[Cadman-iac]

  I would have to look again at a 69 crank pulley, but I'm pretty sure that it's all welded together, making it hard to modify and move the smog pump groove forward to align with the alternator.
It's possible to still use the 69 water pump pulley since it has two grooves, you just won't need the rear groove anymore. That just leaves the crank pulley. You can try to find the right one for a 70, or attempt to modify what you have.
But modifying is risky, you'll have to balance it to avoid any vibration, and it would have to be aligned exactly to prevent belt loss at higher speeds. Just things to consider.

Rick

  P.S. Lars, I just noticed that your car is a 68. Is it a California car? I don't remember clearly now, but my brother had a 68coupe and I thought that it did not have a smog pump.
 If memory serves, the federal vehicles with a pump started in 69. Then 70 didn't require one, 71 and 72 did. And I don't remember what the rest had. I think either 73 or 74 may not have had one, but it's been too long since I have even thought about it now.

[IcebearLars]

...
P.S. when you are looking for these two pulleys, the easiest way to identify them is the shape. The water pump pulley appears almost flat, and the crank pulley still has 3 belt grooves, but there's a gap between the front one for the alternator and the other two for the A/C and P/S belts.
Hope this helps.

Searched for what you are describing here and found something to compare the two - and of course you are right that the crank pulley is in one peace - hats down man!
So I have to forget about my idea with the spacer.

Found the pics on CJ Auto Parts (and therefore just mentioning it since I am not sure running in trouble here posting that pics here) and was based on this detailed pics thankfully now able to get behind the secret of the different pulleys - AND - yes the 70 crank shaft pulley would make my day and bring the crank belt forward to the belt level which the alternator and my current water pump belt are running - AND - it will cost me an arm and a leg - currently out of stock - lol!

[IcebearLars]

Bought the car in California but not sure if it was running before that there - but I am pretty sure that California had higher restriction already at that time - haha!

[Cadman-iac]

Bought the car in California but not sure if it was running before that there - but I am pretty sure that California had higher restriction already at that time - haha!

  If it was in California, it most likely would have been equipped with the California emissions.
The easiest way to know for sure is to look at the tune up and emissions sticker if it's still on the car. I think they were putting those on cars that year, but not positive.
  California started emissions controls sometime in the early 60's I believe. The first thing they required was a PCV system instead of the road draft tube.

[Cadman-iac]

Searched for what you are describing here and found something to compare the two - and of course you are right that the crank pulley is in one peace - hats down man!
So I have to forget about my idea with the spacer.

Found the pics on CJ Auto Parts (and therefore just mentioning it since I am not sure running in trouble here posting that pics here) and was based on this detailed pics thankfully now able to get behind the secret of the different pulleys - AND - yes the 70 crank shaft pulley would make my day and bring the crank belt forward to the belt level which the alternator and my current water pump belt are running - AND - it will cost me an arm and a leg - currently out of stock - lol!

  Maybe someone who lives in a larger city such as Phoenix or Las Vegas would have a look through their local salvage yards for one. I've already gone through the only yard near me and couldn't find any. It seems they had crushed all the older stuff years ago, so what qualifies as old in there now is anything from 1995 or newer.
I only had one because I parted out a 70 coupe when I had a 69 ragtop years ago. But I'm using it on my 56 when I get the 472 in it.
  I know there were  2 years, and I thought at least 1 more, that did not use the smog pump. So there's got to be a few left out there someplace.
 I remember looking at the repair manuals at compression ratios and thinking that each time they dropped the compression, they also dropped the pump for the first year, because it met emissions at the time, then the following year they had to add the pump again to meet emissions. But that's just my theory on it, I don't have any proof.

[35-709]

" --- is it because this shorter belt can't be tensioned since the tension mechanism is with the AIR pump bracket?"
Yes.

[IcebearLars]

Another question - what material is the crank pulley made of?
Steel?
Can it be welded if I separate the front wheel with an lathe? Since I have a spare "non '70 w/ smog pump" pulley I am thinking of give it a try to make my own '70 pulley with separating and welding it together again with a spacer between the middle and front wheel (knowing that this has to be a precise, plain and absolutely centered surgery)

[bcroe]

Regarding the chain cover, the problem is less
than adequate area to hold a gasket at the
bottom, between the chain mount casting and
bottom pan.  Just how they got the factory
gasket to work (for a while) I do not know,
probably glued it.  My advice, if there is
a gasket there, clean it out and glue the
cover directly, while you can.  Already
glued, no leak, leave it. 

Nice example of a timing chain set about to
turn to dust.  Bruce Roe

[IcebearLars]

And need your help with the oil pump spring - had contact with Melling asking for the single spring since I don't need the full oil pump overhaul kit - anser was that the spring is only available in that kit and not sold separately 🤬

So what spring can I use there - if somebody has an idea I would appreciate.