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What can I replace in a 4L60 while I have it open to replace filter?

Started by dochawk, March 29, 2023, 08:00:48 PM

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dochawk

After a year or so of being slow to leave second gear, the transmission in my '93 Fleetwood threw a tantrum and suddenly stopped engaging for more than a few seconds.

I changed the filter & fluid (exhausting into bucket until it was fully pink coming out) when the problem started.

For a couple of days before the tantrum, it sometimes stayed in first longer than it should, sometimes with that whiny sound of a very heavy truck in low gear.  And then it just plain started racing while I drove.

So I ended up renting a uhaul to tow it home (which cost about twice what a filter & flush would have cost down there).

And, worse, it gave out while driving it onto the trailer, denting the chrome panels on the passenger side!

At that point, I called Hagerty, which sent a truck that winched it into place.  It happily drove down the ramp when I got home.

I'm going to start with another filter and fluid replacement.  Am I able to replace solenoids or anything else while I have the bottom plate off?

And for whatever difference it makes, it's 4L60, not 4L70e.  Some pages seem to assume that everything got the updated transmission in 1993, but according to the FSM, the Fleetwood didn't.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

bcroe

Any 30 year old trans, that gave me any problems,
would come out for a complete redo.  Bruce Roe

TJ Hopland

Im no transmission expert but I don't recall anything in the non E's thats replaceable through the pan that would cause these symptoms.  If these had come up after a change I would be looking at filter and where it attaches to the rest of the transmission.  There can be issues with extra or missing gaskets that cause suction leaks and get air into the system.  OR maybe the wrong filter that didn't go deep enough, things like that.   If it ran for any length of time with an issue like that its likely cooked now.

I think the 2wd trucks used the same one so if 2wd trucks were common in your area you may have a shot at finding a used one if budget is an issue otherwise it may be rebuild time.  As long as you don't get a shop full of 'new guys' should not be a big deal.  Even in my area where rust is a huge problem there are still a decent number of trucks on the road that used this model so I would imagine they still come through the shops from time to time. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

dochawk

Thanks.

I've been told that not shifting can be a solenoid issue, and also that sometimes they're mounted inside the pan.

A former mechanic at a parts counter, listening to the symptoms, nodded and told me a failing solenoid was likely the problem (but that was before I found out that it wasn't an E).

I'm looking to replace fluids & filter first simply on the chance that it's a clog getting sucked around. 

Anyway, *if* there is anything that would require opening the pan, I'd just as soon replace it while I'm doing the filter and tossing fluid.

I suppose that if this doesn't get me anywhere, I'll look for a used one to put in so that I can rebuild this one at my leisure. (Yeah, ok, I may be nuts, but I've always wanted to rebuild one!)
After towing over 400 miles, there was absolutely no hesitation about going into reverse and backing down and into place under power.  I then quickly killed it without testing first.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Gene Beaird

A whine sounds like an internal leak, or not enough fluid in the transmission.  With the fluid/engine/trans cold, you probably had enough pressure to allow you to load and unload the car, but not enough pressure once things warmed up.  I don't think the Cadillac 4L60 was any more different, or 'special' than what they used for the other B-body GM cars at the time, so no deep sump pan, or silliness like that.  There ARE deep sump pans available, but your fill reference will still be the OEM dipstick, so it shouldn't make a difference. 

Just checking, because I see filter kits that don't seem to include them, but did you replace the o-ring that goes on the pickup tube of the filter that fits up into the transmission?  Without that, and if the old one came off with the old filter that will be a source for an internal fluid leak. 

Otherwise, I think you're looking for a reliable shop to rebuild your unit.  I've done TH400's before, and while relatively-simple, even they require special special tools to replace the drum seals.  I"m lucky I had a friend in the business who popped those seals on for me for gratis.  I'm not sure I'd tackle a 4+-speed automatic transmission, but if you do, PLEASE do a WIP here!!   :)
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

dochawk

ack! it ate my post when it stalled!

trying again . . .

Quote from: bcroe on March 30, 2023, 09:09:33 AMAny 30 year old trans, that gave me any problems,
would come out for a complete redo.

that's *definitely* in the future. But I'd like to be able to kick it down the road at least a few months, as there are other urgent hoe and car repairs. At the moment, there is a nonworking DHS waiting to strip parts and scrap and a non-running mustang in the driveway, blocking two more non-running Cadillacs in the garage! So nowhere to put this one while it's out of commission.


[then again, if I find either the '94-'96 or 2000+ DHS that I want, I'd sell or give away this car.  Unless I got distracted by the amusing project . . .]


Quote from: TJ Hopland on March 30, 2023, 09:30:35 AMIf it ran for any length of time with an issue like that its likely cooked now.

It ran for 8-10k without incident, almost all of which was on 420 mile per direction highway runs each month. Without incident (other than hesitation to leave second) until the very end.

Quote from: Gene Beaird on March 30, 2023, 02:32:51 PMOtherwise, I think you're looking for a reliable shop to rebuild your unit.

I've paid to rebuild transmissions three times in the past.  Burned all three times.

Quote from: Gene Beaird on March 30, 2023, 02:32:51 PMA whine sounds like an internal leak, or not enough fluid in the transmission.

It's deeper than I'd cal a "whine"; more like the growl of a heavy truck transmission in low gear. 

And I've checked periodically; it's still full of fluid since the change about a year ago.  I added fluid while draining until it ran a nice, clear, pink. [and reattaching the line to the cooler was a royal pain; fortunately a mechanic neighbor noticed me and stopped to help]

Quote from: Gene Beaird on March 30, 2023, 02:32:51 PMJust checking, because I see filter kits that don't seem to include them, but did you replace the o-ring that goes on the pickup tube of the filter that fits up into the transmission? 

I vaguely remember a ring, I think.

The new Delco filter came with this:

IMG_0493.jpeg


Quote from: Gene Beaird on March 30, 2023, 02:32:51 PMI'm not sure I'd tackle a 4+-speed automatic transmission, but if you do, PLEASE do a WIP here!!  :)

oh, absolutely!

[besides, I'll probably be asking questions the whole way!   ;D  ]
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

There was at least one of the THM transmissions in the era in question where it was a common or easy to make mistake to have I think 2 orings and that caused issues.  I assume the old one would stick in the transmission and the installer would not notice and then install the new one on the new filter and and shove it in so you ended up with 2 and that caused a small air leak. 

I think the only solenoid in the non E transmission is for the locking torque converter.  If its not connected or not working you just don't get lock up so you loose a little efficiency at cruise.  If it sticks on its like having a manual with a busted clutch pedal, darn near possible to start rolling and stalls the engine when slowing down.

The difference between the regular and the E's is the regular has the fairly complex valve body with lots of passages and springs and check balls and the governor and maybe a vacuum modulator and maybe a TV cable.  Its then a magical balance of all the pressures and mechanics to decide which clutches or servos to engage when. 

The E's basically get rid of all that stuff and replace it with a couple speed sensors and some solenoids to operate the clutches and or servos.  It uses the engine computer and sensors to figure out what you proabbly want it to be doing then figures out which solenoids it needs to operate to make it happen.  Computer knows what the gear ratios are and it knows the engine speed and the output speed so it knows that say in 3rd gear which is often 1:1 that 2000 rpm from the engine should equal 2000 rpm output.  If its not within a certain range within a certain period of time it will kick a code that its slipping or even go to a limp mode where it tries to increase the pressure to give the best chance of you being able to get it off the road safely.   

And yes I believe on at least the earlier E's like in the 90's you can replace those solenoids through the pan.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason