Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => Technical / Authenticity => Topic started by: dochawk on September 07, 2022, 09:20:40 PM

Title: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 07, 2022, 09:20:40 PM
[jump to post 21 for overheating]

We found that the driver side radiator fan isn't coming on for my 1993 Fleetwood.  The passenger side comes on and off with the AC turning off and on, as I'm told it should.

What should I look at first?  Voltage to the fan?

and if it's getting its 12v, what do I do.

and, my being a fool, it overheated on the way home today.  :-[
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 07, 2022, 11:21:04 PM
I would have to see a diagram but usually there is at least a relay and or module that controls the relay. 

I guess you could try jumpers to see if the fan works.   If they look the same you could take an ohm reading from the good one and compare it to the possibly bad one.   Fuses don't seem to blow easily on these usually takes a pretty serious issue to blow them and when that happens it usually seems to damage the relay/module too. Guessing this is because its not a sudden short, its a slow overload process that just draws more and more current over time and stresses everything. 

If the motor is bad its unlikely that just replacing the motor will solve the issue you will most likely have to dig deeper. 

Again just another guess is if you unplug the coolant temp sensor that should make the fan come on as a safety measure because it doesn't know if its hot or cold so it goes to on just to be safe.   The coolant sensor for the computer is usually up on the intake or maybe on the thermostat housing/outlet.   The one on the side near a spark plug is usually for a gauge or light.

I don't know if a 93 Chev has the ability to turn on the fans from a scan tool, it may.  GM OBD1 was pretty good.  With a decent scan tool you could also read what the temp sensors are reading maybe you got a bad sensor and it doesn't know its hot.

If you have a service manual there is a chance you can read the temp and maybe operate the fan from the climate control.   Book will tell you how to get to that part of the diagnostics and there is likely a chart to decode something like a temp reading into degrees.  It will also tell you how to get to the fan test if there is one.  You have the book open and follow along step by step.  It will ask you to do things like step on the brake and push various buttons to step through the whole test process.     
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 07, 2022, 11:50:10 PM
thanks.

Do you know if the Bishko manual is the.actual factory manual (reprinted?), or a third party product?  it seems to be factory authorized.

I strongly prefer a cd for these; I use old iPads to hold the pdf.  And if an already obsolete and damaged iPad gets run over in the garage, it's no real loss.
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 08, 2022, 12:47:28 AM
No idea on the manuals.  I still try to stick to OE printed ones unless its an online subscription like alldata.  Apparently the 'CD's' are better nowdays but in the past when I tried them they were complete garbage that someone with a cheap scanner made from bad 3rd gen photocopies.

Maybe keep an eye out for a used scan tool.  Not sure about your area but in mine there are usually a few available. You kinda have to do research on the specific model or get them cheap enough that its worth the risk if it doesn't work for your car.  I got a OTC Genisys that came with all the cables and software I needed so far for my fleet. 

2005 seemed to be kinda a turning point for many scan tools where the older ones could not really be upgraded so if people were working on newer cars they had to buy a new tool which may not work well on pre 05 stuff so they hung onto the old tool for a while but now haven't used it for years.
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: CadillacFanBob on September 08, 2022, 02:04:41 PM
I have a 1994 Cadillac service manual, 2 volume set, maybe that will help? what powertrain do you have?
Once I know the powertrain you have, I could post wiring diagram, and if any other information needed I could post that.

Bob
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 08, 2022, 07:59:46 PM
it's the 5.7 chevy engine mated to a 4L60e.

Before getting interrupted with a cat emergency (I really thought that she was going to have to be put down, but there's a chance), I got as far as pulling the relays.  I have two identical ones, Omron Dualtec 12088572, whereas the owner's manual says the there should be a 30A and a 50A.  Apparently Moron is a GM brand.   A whopping $7 each at O'Reilly, and made in Canada, not china.

I'll be testing them in the morning; I had to pull out my soldering station to fix these stupid cheap Chinese alligator cables. 

One of the two relays rattles, so . . .

I suppose I'll just replace them both, since it's cheap and they're probably the same age.

Is the "primary" the one that shuts on and off by thermostat (driver side), and the secondary the one that goes on when the compressor runs?

It's also occurred to me to simply hotwire both fans to stay on when the ignition is hot as a temporary measure--it's not like I'll be using it in less than 100F in the next couple of weeks.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 08, 2022, 12:47:28 AMApparently the 'CD's' are better nowdays but in the past when I tried them they were complete garbage that someone with a cheap scanner made from bad 3rd gen photocopies.

The ones I have for my '72 are great--they even ran a decent OCR, so I can search the pdf for words.   But I'll check before I order; without that, I can scan the manual myself (I have a good law office grade scanner, that can also OCR).


Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: CadillacFanBob on September 09, 2022, 12:19:54 PM
The 1994 Cadillac service manual does not list 5.7 powertrain option, so I don't think it will help your situation. (wiring diagram maybe similar?)

Bob
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 09, 2022, 02:41:27 PM
94 was a lot different engine than a 93 so even if it was listed it would not likely be very accurate.  Since that car was so different than other models at the time I could see it having its own manual.

One thing I have been curious about is why it had electric fans?   The Buicks had the old school clutch fans still in 93 for sure, I don't remember if they 94-96 went electric.  I would assume the 91-93 Caprice also had a clutch fan.   
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 09, 2022, 08:06:25 PM
the wrong relays arrived today  ::)

I found I could easily disconnect the wiring to the fans from above by releasing the tabs on the plug with a small slot screwdriver:


(https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=193636;image)
turning it on, with the AX running, I got 14v on the driver side, and nothing on the passenger side.  swapping the relays, I got 0 on both.

I think this means my driver's side fan is bad, and I have picked up an electrical problem to the passenger side sine I started this.  hmm.

I'll try to measure passenger side voltage again when I have a helper to turn off and on that isn't in a hurry.

I'm wondering if the electric fans for a 2002 deville DHS fit.  some of the same aftermarket models come up on part store sites for both, claiming to fit each. but on closer look, these are general-purpose that *haven't* been measured for this, yet somehow pass the "fits filter."  grr.

And multiple delco motors, and multiple less expensive knockoffs.

I've also messaged the cd vendor to make certain that it actually has a searchable pdf, and not some screwball program that only runs under some particular version of windows.

As for power train, the 5.7 L05 engine was used as an option for the 1990-1992 Brougham, coupled to a 4L60, and as the only engine for the 1993 Fleetwood, coupled to, per most sources, the 4L60E transmission (I think the other ones are just using sloppy grammar ).

the 1994-1996 Fleetwood used a downtuned LS1 (Corvette) 350/5.7, letting it get out of its own way for the first time since the 70s . . ."

...

oh, for Heaven's sake:  it appears that the driver and passenger side fans use different motors!
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 10, 2022, 07:42:04 PM
the first relay arrived, and I put it in in place of the rattly one.  Now I get +14 to the driver side fan socket a couple of seconds after ignition with either relay in either place.

No voltage to the passenger side, no matter what I do.

And applying 12v directly to the now removed fan, that motor is dead.

I found the cooling fan control relay (B), in yet *another* fuse-like box.  Now, *why* this isn't in the cooling fan relay housing, or they aren't in with this, is another issue entirely.  I thought it was bad, found the same part in the '95 Eldorado parts car (four, in fact!), and it seemed bad the same way.  I'd misread the wiring on it.  In the process, I found a 50A fuse where there should have been a 30A for one of the fans; the '02 DHS waiting to be scrapped provided a 30A.

So my motor arrives tomorrow morning for the driver side (neither scrap car could provide one, as Cadillac last used it in '93).

For the passenger side, I confirmed that there is 14v to the relay.  I think that means that there must be a break between the relay and the fan. 

If so, I suspect that it's from the wires being out of their clip; I found them touching the fan, and haven't seen the fan run since.

There has been some *sloppy* work done on this car by prior owners.  Not even in the same league as on my '72, but I'm starting to be annoyed.
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 11, 2022, 11:25:57 AM
Did you crack open some of those rattling relays to see what failed?   Wonder if it was solder that melted or some other piece that melted from over current?   Or was it just something that was a fatigue failure from years of operation?
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: Dave Shepherd on September 11, 2022, 02:20:20 PM
Not directly related to your issue, but I seem to remember  that under certaoin conditions only one fan is activated, not both.
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on September 11, 2022, 05:37:00 PM
G'day Dave,

Not sure what Cadillac did in USA, but here in Australia, where GM built the Holden Statesman, at one time used a pair of electric fans that ran on separate circuits, and would operate when required, with no problems.

Which ones, or what for, I cannot remember, but, at the time, I thought it was a good way of doing stuff.

Bruce. >:D   
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: Dave Shepherd on September 11, 2022, 06:07:14 PM
I think when the ac condenser reached its pre-programmed pressure limit, both fans were activated.
Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 11, 2022, 06:32:37 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 11, 2022, 11:25:57 AMDid you crack open some of those rattling relays to see what failed?

Not yet but I expect to when I'm done.  Only one rattles, and the other works interchangeably with the new one.

given that it was nearly 30 years old . . .


Quote from: Dave Shepherd on September 11, 2022, 02:20:20 PMNot directly related to your issue, but I seem to remember  that under certaoin conditions only one fan is activated, not both.

My understanding is that the passenger side is the primary, which comes on and off based on coolant (block?) temperature, while the driver side is the secondary, which comes on whenever the compressor runs, and *also* turns on the primary. 

But I have no basis for that other than talking to someone familiar with many cars, but not this model.

I suppose I could drive a few miles to heart up and see if it runs, but I'd rather know that sitting off while the other is running is not a deviation all by itself.

My motor arrived this morning, and installation was trivial.

A note for those reading this later:  use a torque wrench to install the bolt holding the fan!  Mine came with dire warnings that over-torquing could cause something to bind and the motor to fail, which would not be covered by warranty.  It called for 25-30 ft-lbs.

I fired up the engine, and the fan didn't spin.

Uhh, I guess it helps to plug it in.

I couldn't, so I removed the fan again.  The two lugs on this Chinese replacement weren't where they should have been; I bent them slightly with a screwdriver, and it snapped right on.

So I now have the driver side fan running.

I have ground to the passenger side plug, but according to my new lamp probe, the positive wire isn't hot.

So does anyone know if the primary fan *should* be on on a cold engine with the AC on?

I should also note that, at least on a hot engine, the passenger fan *was* on when we first noted that the driver side fan wasn't running.

as a backup plan, does anyone have any bright ideas on where to tap juice to simply have the fan run whenever the car is on?  (I have only tomorrow before I fly out for a few days, and want to drive 400+ mies to see my wife ASAP!)

Title: Re: driver side radiator fan not coming on in 1993 Fleetwood (and overheating)
Post by: dochawk on September 12, 2022, 09:29:48 PM
I'm going to start another thread about the relay holder.

The driver side fan is now working correctly.

The passenger side motor doesn't seen to respond at  to +12 applied directly, but one of my alligator cables may have been bad; I'll have to test again.  The motor shows about the same resistance as the one that works on the driver side.

Also, while the +14 comes on when it should to the coil pin on the socket for the passenger side relay, and there is continuity from pin 87 of the relay socket to the fan socket, there is no +14 in that socket.  The other socket pin is properly connected to ground.

Unless another search finds a blown fuse that I've missed on all the prior checks, or unless I get some progress opening the socket box in the other thread, I suspect I'll be tapping something to just leave it always on.
Title: Re: bad wiring *to* fan relay socket on 93 Fleetwood [was driver side fan not . . .
Post by: dochawk on September 20, 2022, 08:17:59 PM
I've got it running! (but I'll still need a permanent fix.

This is the inside of the relay socket.  As it is upside down, positions are flipped from front to back.

Some testing with a probe showed the logic of the things.

IMG_0831.jpg

Light blue signals to turn on fan with 12v; dark blue with white stripe is the other end of the relay coil, and ground.

Well, it's supposed to be.

Grey is for the AC/secondary fan to turn on, and black is ground for that socket.

Properly working, both sides of coil are grounded when the fan should be off.

Connected to the positive battery terminal, though, I only got a weak, feeble glow from my probe to dark blue.

I used alligator clips to jumper from black to dark blue, and everything runs correctly.

I obviously need a better permanent solution, but this is a start.

I'll start a separate thread about how to bypass bad socket wiring, as it has wider application.


Title: what is the best way to bypass bad wiring to a socket under the hood?
Post by: dochawk on September 20, 2022, 08:24:57 PM
[this is a spinoff from the thread about the cooling fans not running on my Fleetwood, cooling fan not running thread (https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=169511).

I have a bad ground wire going to a socket.  In this case, it's a fan relay socket.

IMG_0831.jpg

The bad one is the dark blue with white wire indicated by the dark blue arrow; it's supposed to be ground.

What is the best way to provide ground to this socket?  My temporary solution is an alligator cable jumper, but I need something more robust for the long term.
Title: Re: bad wiring *to* fan relay socket on 93 Fleetwood [was driver side fan not . . .
Post by: dochawk on September 22, 2022, 08:39:07 PM
My first attempt, with alligator clips on the bottom, worked well for the 15 mile each way trip to a club meeting tuesday night. 

After each, I checked with an infrared gun, and got temperatures on the block fluctuating around 210F by a couple of degrees either way.

So I headed to Tucson yesterday.

at Kingman, just over 100 miles, I stopped for gas and checked, and still there.

Add another couple of hundred miles, and something gave, and the temp indicator came on early in phoenix.

I ended up doing some more experimenting, and  went into Home Depot.  Multiple times. 

[a couple of hours of experimenting with what fit omitted]

The male spade connector is the same size as the relay plugs. So I bought some that would fit 10-12 gauge wire, a foot of 10 gauge wire, some ring connectors to fit 10-12, and some washers to fit the 6-32 screws on the toggle switch, which I also bought.  The toggle is rated for 10A at 277v , and 20 at 120.  (The motors may briefly exceed that when starting to spin).

So I built:

IMG_0840.jpg

I tried it, and it worked wonderfully with the engine off.

So I kicked it over, and now the *other* fan--the one with the ew motor--wasn't spinning up.

Tired of messing around, I went back in for the fourth time and simply bought another toggle.

Yielding

IMG_0841.jpg

I then topped off the radiator and overflow, turned on my fans, and drove off relieved.

Well, for a few miles.

The light came back on, I pulled over, and was horrified to see that I'd forgot to put the radiator cap back on! ::)

So there in the rain, I mixed my remaining distilled water with antifreeze a couple of times into a empty liter water bottle, turned on engine, added, turned off, repeat.

This let me go the two miles to a Pilot station that actually had a couple of gallons of distilled water (I'd gotten additional antifreeze at Home Depot, but they didn't have distilled).

Then mixed a gallon, added with engine running to full and then to the overflow.  I left the fans on the whole time . . .

At which point, I was able to drive the remaining 100+ miles without incident.

I certainly need to insulate these toggles so that the exposed screws/pins don't touch ground.

But this gives me a few weeks to come up with a more permanent solution.  It will be a while before it is cool enough for excessive cooling to be an issue in either Las Vegas or Tucson . . .

I do, though, think that I'll want to keep a switch, probably starting a timer or running off a sensor,  to throw both switches and similarly for the water pump.  Or maybe to just do this automatically when the water is above a certain temperature (drive a power MOSFET from the temperature line?)
Title: Re: bad wiring *to* fan relay socket on 93 Fleetwood [was driver side fan not . . .
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AM
So you have determined that the power wiring is fine and its the control ground that is presumably controlled by the ECU isn't happening?   Have you been able to either through the self diagnostics or scan tool see what temp the ECU thinks the engine is?  And or if its commanding the fan to turn on?

Nice on the road fix for bypassing the relays.  Before you quit your day job and try to market it note that there are already such products on the market.  Here is an example available from pretty much anywhere that has auto parts.   They are relay sized units with a manual switch on the top.  The specific kit I linked to also has a wire loop on them that passes the load so you can use a clamp on amp meter to do a current draw test on things like fans and pumps during troubleshooting.

https://ipatools.com/product/9038a-relay-bypass-kit-with-amp-loop/
Title: Re: bad wiring *to* fan relay socket on 93 Fleetwood [was driver side fan not . . .
Post by: dochawk on September 23, 2022, 07:57:02 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMSo you have determined that the power wiring is fine and its the control ground that is presumably controlled by the ECU isn't happening? 

I've determined that there is a bad ground to the relay coil for the passenger/primary relay.  Successfully shorting it to a good ground allows the relay to throw.  [for that matter, touching that ground with a 12v light probe when it should be off causes the relay to throw, as the other side is grounded when it should be off!]. There is a *very* weak connection, letting a feeble glow out of the indicator, so I assume it to be a bad wire.

I haven't a clue what went wrong with the secondary fan relay near the end.  I was in no mood for anything else, and just made another switch!  Maybe I'll peek tomorrow.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMHave you been able to either through the self diagnostics or scan tool see what temp the ECU thinks the engine is?  And or if its commanding the fan to turn on?

I think it has a good grasp on the temp, given when the idiot lights come on.

And it *is* sending the command to engage the relay, I've watched the voltage change.  It's just that the other end isn't properly grounded.


Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMNice on the road fix for bypassing the relays. 


Thanks.  It wasn't an accident that there was a Home Depot at hand; when things acted up, I knew that there was one in the same complex as the Del Taco my wife and I often stop at when passing through, which was only a few miles ahead.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 23, 2022, 10:36:42 AMBefore you quit your day job and try to market it note that there are already such products on the market. 

thanks; I'll look into those for future use.  But landing at someplace that has such in stock is a bit tricker than a Home Depot!
 ;D

There is definitely a microcontroller under the hood in this car's future.  Which one will probably depend on how many IO pins.  I'll want inputs for coolant temp, block temp, spark/rpm, and a pair to monitor the fans (which will also need an output, probably, to flash an LED or some such).  I'll want outputs for both fans, water pump, and probably fuel pump.   And in the meantime, I'll probably come up with other things I want (speed will probably be better on a phone with GPS, so I doubt it).  Oh, like for the transmission, to see which gear it is in, and which it is *supposed* to be in (right now, it often fails to leave 2d, both for 3d and for back to 1st at a stop.).

If it's few enough inputs and outputs, there's wifi chip module that has enough IO lines left to use its spare computing power as a microcontroller.  [it's kind of odd to add wifi or bluetooth to an Arduino, as this generally means a 32 bit processor at maybe a couple of hundred MHz, so that an 8Mhz 8 bit cpu can communicate . . .{I like 8 bits, I can actually *understand* what is going on!}].

 
Title: Re: bad wiring *to* fan relay socket on 93 Fleetwood [was driver side fan not . . .
Post by: dochawk on September 25, 2022, 10:52:55 PM
grr.

I'm suspecting heat damage.

320 miles from vegas to phoenix before the jumper failed (ground to primary relay coil).

Built switches to leave fans on when running, and blew out a bunch of coolant by forgetting to put radiator cap on  [put a yellow guy banging his head against a brick wall here . . .]

Another 100 miles to tucson, and block still at 210.

20 miles or so, and I heard a bit of boiling when I got out, but block at 210. 
Topped off before returning hope, but heard boiling from *inside* car.

Cap wasn't all the way tightened (2-5 degrees, but enough it was backwashing into overflow tank.

Killed an hour (with a good burger and beer).

Topped off coolant, and limped home (well, where I'm staying here).

I'll fill again on a truly cold engine tomorrow and test it, but I'm obviously not going home tomorrow . . .

I'm suspecting heat damage (heads warped?).

Any advice, thoughts, or speculation would be useful.
Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: TJ Hopland on September 25, 2022, 11:37:42 PM
Where or how are you reading the 210?

That era Chev truck engine isn't that fragile.  Its not as overbuilt and tolerant of abuse like a 472/500 was but still a fairly durable engine.  If you were reading 210 somewhere its not a stretch to assume its 212 somewhere and you only gain a few degrees boiling point not being pure water so I think you may be having a pressure issue.

If it was me I think I may go buy a new radiator cap and install it.   Start er up and keep squeezing the upper hose as it warms up.  You should not feel any real pressure till its gets some real heat into it, usually takes some driving.  If it builds pressure before it builds heat that is a sign of a head gasket issue.  If it doesn't build pressure after a test drive you got a leak somewhere. 

Its the pressure that gets the boil temp up to like 250. No pressure you are boiling around 212 which is only a few degrees over optimal operating temp.  The reason pressure from a bad head gasket doesn't help is its blowing bubbles into the coolant which can do things like stall the flow when it gets to the water pump which then causes pockets to boil causing more bubbles and its a cascade effect.         
Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 26, 2022, 01:08:20 PM
while it had slipped my mind, a couple of months ago someone had noted that my coolant level was low, and I bought a new cap and coolant before leaving the parking lot.

I usually measure by the F in "Firing order", just to have a consistent spot:

IMG_0843.jpg

That's at the end of the red arrow and the spot.

That seems generally consistent with measuring on the sides at pink and yellow arrows.

Up higher, by light blue, tends to be significantly higher.

I poured more in this morning, and am waiting for it to settle.

I'll then top off again, run for 15-20 seconds, and come back inside to wait again.

Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 26, 2022, 02:40:34 PM
My shop manual arrives in vegas today.  Hopefully, one of my kids can email the pdf from the CD.


I'm starting to take readings, gradually increasing run time.

First reading:

9/26
11:27, 93.9, 91 ambient.  Ran 1 minute w. Fan & AC. 94.6 a couple of minutes later.  Quiet when lifting valve.

11:42  103.8.  102.3 after 1 min.9. About 1 inch an overflow tank after two minute run. Block temperature to 102 a couple of minutes after. About an inch of coolant flushed to overflow.  Tube soft.

11:57 117. Tank same. Ran for 3 min. 17 after 1 min. 115/2.  115/3.  Bubbling into overflow after about a minute. 115/1. 119/2.   127/3, still lightly bubbling gas, not liquid, into overflow, still at an inch. 127/4, still bubbling

I'm doing it about every 15 minutes, running engine one minute longer each time.

Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 26, 2022, 05:24:17 PM
[note:  the movie IMG_0849.mpg and the audio IMG_0852.audio.mpg don't display correctly, but seem to download fine on the end. as attachment]

OK, two more entries and I've stopped, as I have thumping fluid and possibly a loose belt.


It was about time to end the five minutes when it started "thumping".  I grabbed a video to get the sound, but saw something I *very* much didn't expect:

IMG_0849.mpg
 
(you may have to download the attachment at the end of this post)

(I normally wouldn't send this in full resolution, but it's not apparent in my reduced versions)

Is it me, or is the upper left fully slipping erratically?

That was with the engine running.  Here is audio only with the fan off, as well:

(you may have to download the attachment at the end of this post)


IMG_0852.audio.mpg

So what *is* that sound? water pump? thermostat?

speaking of the thermostat, should I pull it just to toss in a pot of water on the stove and see if it works?


So a belt & pulleys before anything else?  Amazon delivers most here in 1 day (but I may have missed today's deadline out here).  [if it comes to it, there's an oreilley's two miles away, but I'd have to pedal uphill!]


Which pulleys?

the idler was making a snickering sound that has since stopped, and this one (what is it?) should go too, but what else?

IMG_0632.jpg

And I guess I need the idle pulley too, too. Gosh, it galls me to buy another one, when I have a perfectly good one (well, harbor freight, but still) in my garage.
Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on September 26, 2022, 08:35:25 PM
Is that a crack I can see in the pulley?

If it is, then it definitely needs replacing before it destroys itself, creating more damage.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 26, 2022, 09:07:34 PM
that's a crack, all right.

But what pulley *is* it? [it's lower right facing the car]

It needs to replace, as do the belt and the idle.  What else *should* be replaced while at that?

I think that if I can order by mid-morning, amazon can have most things here Wednesday.

and we'll see if I can talk my kids through pulling the pdf from the FSM cd in the morning and mailing it to me.

Title: Re: overheating and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 27, 2022, 11:26:29 AM
and now the FSM has arrived.

it took some doing (I guess one old drive died), but my daughter managed to pull the pdf and email it to me.  So I'll read the cooling system this morning, and leave the rest of the 2,245 pages for another day.
Title: Re: overheating, thumping and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 27, 2022, 07:22:02 PM
well, *that* wasn't how I wanted it to go!
:(

it took about the half gallon to get just under the neck of the radiator (with empty surge tank) before starting, and then the level dropped after roughly a minute, and it took some more.

about 2 minutes in, I turned on the primary fan (the ac fan was already running).

Several minutes in, I switched it from AC to max heat.  About that time, I put the cap on the radiator.

I think it was about 12 minutes in that it hit 170, and then went up about 10 degrees/minute.

It seemed to stabilized, fluctuating at around 212, about 15 minutes in,  but then started creeping up.

and at 18.5 minutes, it started flooding into the overflow tank, quickly filling it and flowing out the top.

At that point I killed it, even though it was still blowing cold, and the AC was still blowing cold.

early on, I looked around for white smoke from the exhaust, and didn't even see any visible exhaust.

The block was just under 130F, measured next to the "F" in "Firing Order" at the end.

oh, and that was the compressor, not the alternator, that looked like it was slipping.  It turned on and off a lot for the first couple of minutes.

I went out about 15 minutes later to turn the fan off.  The block was at about 170.  the overflow tank was about an inch above "full cold".  I turned it on, and my exhaust was nice and clear (I had to crawl down close to even see the distortion in the air!)
Title: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 28, 2022, 09:10:36 PM
OK, now *this* is interesting.

It's been running about 5 minutes without a fan at this point, heater full on:

IMG_0864.mpg

(video primarily shows IR temp readings at various spots).
[if it won't play, try getting it from http://www.dochawk.org/caddie/IMG_0864.mpg (http://www.dochawk.org/caddie/IMG_0864.mpg)]


The front of the radiator on the driver's side is hotter than anything else.

It's close to 200F, while the block is at about 140F (see at 30S in), and the back side of the radiator is under 100F.

You can generally see exactly where I'm aiming by the red dot.

I didn't notice any water motion (other than the jiggle), but I need to get a few ounces back out, I think.

I'll pump a few ounces out in the morning (too dark now), so that it barely covers the coil, and try to video that.

but if the water is in this range of temperature, the thermostat should definitely have opened, shouldn't it? 
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: V63 on September 28, 2022, 10:10:38 PM
With mention of a cat and overheating (green antifreeze) it's important to realize pets (dogs and cats) will drink it and it almost always fatal with amounts of a few laps.

With these computer controlled vehicles... powering up circuits can damage electronics, contol Modules ect.

In FWD cars in that era they had a fan control module that was a frequent fail. It was mounted under the core support and about the size of a Sara Lee pound cake🤭
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 28, 2022, 11:01:09 PM
no outdoor pets around here--too many coyote, javelina, bobcats, rattlers, and even the occasional mountain lion.

But when I say "remove", I mean with a pump back into my jug of 50/50.

And the climate is such (tucson) that even antifreeze doesn't last long on the pavement, and would get washed away a couple of times a day even if it did (monsoon season). . .

As this is a '93, there aren't a lot of computers (but some).  This circuit, however, is just an old-style relay, with the switch replacing the contacts, with a load of a classic DC fan.

Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: TMoore - NTCLC on September 29, 2022, 12:05:17 PM
I know you have spent a lot of time and effort on this, and maybe I missed it, but I always like to keep things simple.  I had a similar situation on my 1994 Fleetwood (yes, I know, completely different animal), but after switching relays etc., I finally discovered that I had a bad engine thermostat.  A 5.00 replacement and a couple of bolts later, all the fans were cycling at the correct time and everything was back to normal.  Your diagnosis does not seem to indicate that this is your problem, but I thought I would throw it out there.
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 29, 2022, 12:47:59 PM
To clarify, I've actually been juggling multiple, apparently unrelated but oddly coincidental, problems.

Initially, the primary fan wasn't running--the cause of the boiling I heard. The secondary fan was running.

Once I started testing things, the secondary fan was just plain dead; it's been replaced.

The bad socket to the relay was identified (the ground pin for the relay coil had only a tenuous relation with ground).   This was temporarily patched with an alligator cable, and heat stayed where it should for a couple of 15 mile test trips, and then for 300 miles with checks of block temp every hundred miles or so.

Then, at least in the outskirts of a large metropolis (Phoenix), one of the clips worked its way off, and I overheated.  I made the switch assembly at this point, topped off coolant . . .

. . . and forgot to put the cap on *(stupid!)*. So another side trip for yet more coolant and distilled water, and I was able to drive without event to Tucson, another 100 miles.

A couple of 2 mile trips without incident.

And then about 30 miles across town, and on the return trip from that, I heard boiling from the passenger compartment after a couple of miles.  Refilled and limped home, but the lights came on again near the end.

And now I'm in head scratching mode. 

Monsoons permitting, I'll jack it up this morning.  I ordered a jack stand and chocks from Walmart.  One day shipping (for some random time today) turned into an unexpected six hour delivery from the store last night.

Once I find something to catch all the fluid, I'll put in the thermostat that also arrive yesterday from amazon, and test the one that's in there.  And inspect the water pump.

Was your thermostat actually down low at the water pump (what my FSM seems to say), or up top like a normal engine?

thanks
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: Daryl Chesterman on September 29, 2022, 03:20:59 PM
Your thermostat is where the pink arrow is pointing in this image, taken from post #23—the top front of the intake manifold.

    https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=194151

I have not seen anything said about pulling the radiator and having the flow through it checked at a radiator shop.  The temperature of the radiator at the top (by the inlet hose) should be hotter than at the bottom of the radiator (by the outlet hose going to the water pump).  If you have a bad head gasket or a cracked head you should be able to see bubbles in the filler neck once the engine is warmed up and the thermostat is open.  Another check of the coolant system is to have a pressure test done to see if the system will hold pressure.

Daryl Chesterman
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: fishnjim on September 29, 2022, 03:51:38 PM
50/50 glycol antifreeze should boil around 226 with the cap off, so something doesn't make sense here.  So unless you're at a very high elevation...
You can't measure the static block temperature on the outside and have any meaningful data. 
If you don't get the block completely full of coolant, then you're subject to boil out.   Without the cap, it'll just keep coming out.  Cap should hold some pressure, keeping the BP above 226 and shouldn't flash.  I'm not familiar with this year and how difficult it is to fill coolant.  It's very my models and arrangement of the hose, tanks, etc.
Cars are air side controlled in heat transfer, so if there's no/insufficient air moving across the radiator, it can not cool the engine.  The heat has to transfer to air and heat the air to cool the engine...
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 29, 2022, 08:44:41 PM
Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on September 29, 2022, 03:20:59 PMYour thermostat is where the pink arrow is pointing in this image, taken from post #23—the top front of the intake manifold.

indeed, it was there, contrary to my reading of the service manual.  I've attached pp661-2; it starts at the bottom right of 661, with the diagram at the bottom of 662.  And *somewhere* in this extended section I think it referred to it being in the bottom of the engine.

After removal, I put the thermostat in a glass glass and poured boiling water over it.  It didn't do anything, so I presume it to be bad.

And the gasket came off in pieces.

Getting the passenger side bolt out was an adventure.  I have the tray of tools I'd been using the few days before the trip, which got put in the car, and a couple of miscellaneous things in her garage.  The ground wire stopped me from getting a grip on the stud so that I could get the nut off from on top of it.   Eventually I managed to bend the wire loop back close enough to get a crescent wrench on the stud well enough to loosen the nut with a socket. (at which point, naturally, the loop I was trying to save jumped off anyway . . .)

The MotoRad 2000-195 replacement has a slightly smaller outer disk than what came out of this (which was a 180F!), should this be a problem?

I put it in, retightened, and it's leaking a drizzle.  Swell.

Back to my limited tools . . . I *do* have a torque wrench with me, but it's a 3/8.  My tray is of 1/4 drive, with a few loose 3/8 that I'm using.

I'm not comfortable torquing harder than I already have without measuring.  So a cheap socket set to live in the trunk arrives tomorrow, with box wrenches on Saturday.  (but, maybe I'll luck out and get delivery tonight again!)
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: Daryl Chesterman on September 30, 2022, 01:40:24 AM
On what you are referring to as page 662 (shows 6B-9 in the upper right corner), in the lower corner above Figure 3, it says:

Install or Connect
NOTICE: The wrong type of thermostat assembly
installed in the thermostat housing assembly will
cause some engine coolant to only flow through the
bypass into the left end tank of the radiator assembly
causing insufficient cooling or possible engine overheating.
NOTICE: Make sure the thermostat assembly is
installed in the correct location. Installing the thermostat assembly in the intake manifold located on
top of the engine will cause excessive coolant pressure and possible overheating.
NOTICE: See "Notice" on page 6B-1 of this section.


I don't know what the "Notice" is on page 6B-1, but the above section does refer to the thermostat on the intake manifold on the top of the engine, and it possibly causing overheating.  I have worked on Chevrolet 350 engines and there was no thermostat on the lower-right front of the engine.  Could this engine have two thermostats?  According to NAPA's cataloging, the thermostat is supposed to be a 180°, and is supposed to have a rubber seal with a slot on the inside circumference of the seal that the rim of the thermostat should fit in, as well as a paper gasket.  Generally speaking, the spring side of the thermostat goes down into the intake manifold with the rim (with seal) sitting in a shallow recess, then the paper gasket goes next, then the thermostat housing.

According to Rock Auto, your thermostat should be a Motorad 7307180, which is a 180° thermostat.  So, I would not use the 195° thermostat.  Rock Auto's thermostat also shows the rubber seal around the circumference of the thermostat rim.  The diameter of the replacement thermostat should fit inside the recess in the intake manifold.  Does the section 6B-1 show the thermostat in the water outlet at the top of the intake manifold?  It sounds like you are going to have to sort out if there is also a thermostat on the front-right side of the engine, also!  I would also be very careful where there is a rubber seal around the thermostat, as well as a paper gasket, as it might cause too much thickness leaving a gap between the ears of the water outlet and the surface of the manifold and when tightened, bending the ears of the water outlet.  It is possible that you only need one or the other and not both.

Good luck!
Daryl Chesterman
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 30, 2022, 04:24:32 PM
The pdf OCR is, uhh, interesting at times. The page names in the thumbnails (such as 161) don't always match the page names (1B1) . . .

The parts companies are all over the board as to whether the OEM is 180 or 195.  On the same page that RockAuto has "MOTORAD 307180 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} 180 Degree; Includes Seal
OE Temperature", just three lines up it has "GATES 33009 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} 195 Degree; OE Type Info
OE Temperature", and another line up it has the gates 180 as an alternative temperature!

(and I'm still a bit peeved with rockoauto over the two cases of "Dextron VI" that I have from them, as it was listed, that on the bottles warns *not* to use it in place of Dextron VI . . .)

For the economy thermostats, it calls 195 OE and 180 alternate.

Napa & O'Reily call 180 the OE temp--but Napa lists the wrong transmission (4L60e, which wasn't used until the following year), and O'Reilly and AutoZone had the wrong brake rotors listed (apparently confusing it with an FWD Fleetwood from a different years; they had the right ones under Fleetwood Brougham!).

The FSM doesn't list a part number for the thermostat (or, for that matter, show it!).

It shoes that whole assembly down low as "thermostat assembly housing" and similar, but doesn't show a thermostat as part of it!  In fact, I can't find *any* references to just thermostat, rather than housing!

For that matter, the only time in the entire manual that either 180 or 195 appears as a temperature is on page 1C-28, under insufficient  heating, with


I find nothing in the FSM to suggest that I should have a thermostat in the normal place (where I indeed found a thermostat).

QuotePreliminary Inspection:
1. Check for proper engine coolant level.
2. Check engine for proper operating temperature (approximately 91 °C (195°F)). If engine does not
reach 91 °C (195°F), replace thermostat assembly. Refer to SECTION 6B.


I think I'm going to put it in *without* a thermostat for the moment, and test it.  It's not like it should shutoff on a drive through the mohave desert this time of year, which would get me home at least . . .

So off to the FSM to see if I can find appropriate torque settings for the bolts that hold down the upper hose . . .
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 30, 2022, 07:56:49 PM
update:  at the end of page 6B-16, I found

QuoteThermostat Assembly Opening Temperature..... 83°C (181 °F)

but still no thermostat entry.  So when the sockets arrive tomorrow that fit the torque wrench that followed me here, I'll assemble without upper thermostat, and see both whether coolant flows when first turned on, and whether the engine stays at proper temperature without boilover.


Quote from: Daryl Chesterman on September 30, 2022, 01:40:24 AMhmm, when I exported the pdf to pdf in preview, I found that *some* of the thumbnail were simple page numbers in the pdf, and others were named pages.  So it *wasn't* OCR.

And for the record, although it took something like 45 minutes with fans blazing on a MacBook Pro, performance is *much* better on the exported pdf.  That, and I can add a bookmark and save without it going into death throes . . .

On what you are referring to as page 662 (shows 6B-9 in the upper right corner), in the lower corner above Figure 3, it says:

Install or Connect
NOTICE: The wrong type of thermostat assembly
installed in the thermostat housing assembly will
cause some engine coolant to only flow through the
bypass into the left end tank of the radiator assembly
causing insufficient cooling or possible engine overheating.
NOTICE: Make sure the thermostat assembly is
installed in the correct location. Installing the thermostat assembly in the intake manifold located on
top of the engine will cause excessive coolant pressure and possible overheating.
NOTICE: See "Notice" on page 6B-1 of this section.


I don't know what the "Notice" is on page 6B-1, but the above section does refer to the thermostat on the intake manifold on the top of the engine, and it possibly causing overheating.  I have worked on Chevrolet 350 engines and there was no thermostat on the lower-right front of the engine.  Could this engine have two thermostats?  According to NAPA's cataloging, the thermostat is supposed to be a 180°, and is supposed to have a rubber seal with a slot on the inside circumference of the seal that the rim of the thermostat should fit in, as well as a paper gasket.  Generally speaking, the spring side of the thermostat goes down into the intake manifold with the rim (with seal) sitting in a shallow recess, then the paper gasket goes next, then the thermostat housing.

According to Rock Auto, your thermostat should be a Motorad 7307180, which is a 180° thermostat.  So, I would not use the 195° thermostat.  Rock Auto's thermostat also shows the rubber seal around the circumference of the thermostat rim.  The diameter of the replacement thermostat should fit inside the recess in the intake manifold.  Does the section 6B-1 show the thermostat in the water outlet at the top of the intake manifold?  It sounds like you are going to have to sort out if there is also a thermostat on the front-right side of the engine, also!  I would also be very careful where there is a rubber seal around the thermostat, as well as a paper gasket, as it might cause too much thickness leaving a gap between the ears of the water outlet and the surface of the manifold and when tightened, bending the ears of the water outlet.  It is possible that you only need one or the other and not both.

Good luck!
Daryl Chesterman
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on September 30, 2022, 07:57:10 PM
update:  at the end of page 6B-16, I found

QuoteThermostat Assembly Opening Temperature..... 83°C (181 °F)

but still no thermostat entry.  So when the sockets arrive tomorrow that fit the torque wrench that followed me here, I'll assemble without upper thermostat, and see both whether coolant flows when first turned on, and whether the engine stays at proper temperature without boilover.

Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on October 01, 2022, 08:13:09 PM
Major success!

I took the thermostat in the upper housing completely out (rather than the 195F replacement that may not be the right diameter disk, anyway.  I'm suspicious).

When it got to 20 minutes running in the driveway without acting up, I added to the full cold line of the overflow tank, I drove 2 miles down the hill, and back up.  Still stable.

Then 7.5 miles largely downhill, and back.

Tank still at same level, and top of engine block reading about 183.

Tomorrow morning, I'll try the 20 miles and back that went wrong last week (to church!), and if that works, I can go home on Monday (it will be too late to drive back by the time things are settled after church.

However, I did this today without the AC on, as the secondary fan wasn't coming on.  I'll check fuses, and then if it works with a toggle, go that way.  If not, I suppose I drive home with the windows down . . .

I'll report late morning tomorrow.

For now, I've earned a beer.

Oh, and the only thing that I ended up using from the tools once they arrived was the 3/8->1/4 adaptor--it takes a long socket to do the posts that hold down the faux thermostat cover!
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: James Landi on October 02, 2022, 07:55:00 AM
Hi RIchard,

I haven't been closely following your post, but my "work around" approaches are of a similar genre to yours when apparently simple yet major mechanical challenges occur. So I'll add my 2 cents--- there's a fan module usually mounted under one of your head lights-- it's a transistorized component on most modern cars that's rather sophisiticated. The body control module or engine control module provides a low voltage "signal"  to this transistorized switch (the ones I know of don't have servo-mechanical switches)--- and more important: the "ground" for the fans is also controlled by the module--- the ground wire provides feedback for the computer so that when a diagnositic scan tool is used, the mechanic has several significant readings to assess the entire operation of each fan, its respective threshold for cycling on, etc. I just replaced one of these in my 1988 Cadillac and had been seriously considering using under dash toggle switches so I could make the "judgement calls."  Once I replaced the module (around 90 dollars), all is good.  Hope this helps and is informative.   James 
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: dochawk on October 02, 2022, 06:09:00 PM
I didn't find those modules--but then again, I didn't look very hard, either.  That's a job for when I get home and can order the module (if, in fact, it's the culprit).

It will generally be over 90 for tomorrow's drive, so the ac will be on, and the correct consequence is both fans running.

I shortened the leads on my toggles today, and remounted the base of the relay socket block, which should hold the toggles a little steadier, and prevent them from meandering from where I place them.

I think I'll add a tie-down as well to snug the spade lugs into the sockets.
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: James Landi on October 03, 2022, 07:33:02 AM
It certainly won't be concerning to run both fans, switched manually by the good doctor.  When I was living on a school teacher's salary and driving my '56 sdv during the oil embargo of '73, my heater valve developed an arterial bleed, so I replaced it with a house plumbing ball valve... suited my purposes just fine.  I could bore you with other "work - arounds," but suffice it to say that my "better 7/8's" often found them less then entertaining.   Happy day,  James
Title: Re: radiator hotter than block on overheating fleetwood? [was: 93 fleetwood fans]
Post by: badpoints on December 01, 2022, 10:51:06 AM
I would just either wire both fans together or use the working control line for both relays.