overheating, thumping and stranded in tucson [was: 93 fleetwood fans]

Started by dochawk, September 07, 2022, 09:20:40 PM

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dochawk

[jump to post 21 for overheating]

We found that the driver side radiator fan isn't coming on for my 1993 Fleetwood.  The passenger side comes on and off with the AC turning off and on, as I'm told it should.

What should I look at first?  Voltage to the fan?

and if it's getting its 12v, what do I do.

and, my being a fool, it overheated on the way home today.  :-[
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

I would have to see a diagram but usually there is at least a relay and or module that controls the relay. 

I guess you could try jumpers to see if the fan works.   If they look the same you could take an ohm reading from the good one and compare it to the possibly bad one.   Fuses don't seem to blow easily on these usually takes a pretty serious issue to blow them and when that happens it usually seems to damage the relay/module too. Guessing this is because its not a sudden short, its a slow overload process that just draws more and more current over time and stresses everything. 

If the motor is bad its unlikely that just replacing the motor will solve the issue you will most likely have to dig deeper. 

Again just another guess is if you unplug the coolant temp sensor that should make the fan come on as a safety measure because it doesn't know if its hot or cold so it goes to on just to be safe.   The coolant sensor for the computer is usually up on the intake or maybe on the thermostat housing/outlet.   The one on the side near a spark plug is usually for a gauge or light.

I don't know if a 93 Chev has the ability to turn on the fans from a scan tool, it may.  GM OBD1 was pretty good.  With a decent scan tool you could also read what the temp sensors are reading maybe you got a bad sensor and it doesn't know its hot.

If you have a service manual there is a chance you can read the temp and maybe operate the fan from the climate control.   Book will tell you how to get to that part of the diagnostics and there is likely a chart to decode something like a temp reading into degrees.  It will also tell you how to get to the fan test if there is one.  You have the book open and follow along step by step.  It will ask you to do things like step on the brake and push various buttons to step through the whole test process.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

dochawk

thanks.

Do you know if the Bishko manual is the.actual factory manual (reprinted?), or a third party product?  it seems to be factory authorized.

I strongly prefer a cd for these; I use old iPads to hold the pdf.  And if an already obsolete and damaged iPad gets run over in the garage, it's no real loss.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

No idea on the manuals.  I still try to stick to OE printed ones unless its an online subscription like alldata.  Apparently the 'CD's' are better nowdays but in the past when I tried them they were complete garbage that someone with a cheap scanner made from bad 3rd gen photocopies.

Maybe keep an eye out for a used scan tool.  Not sure about your area but in mine there are usually a few available. You kinda have to do research on the specific model or get them cheap enough that its worth the risk if it doesn't work for your car.  I got a OTC Genisys that came with all the cables and software I needed so far for my fleet. 

2005 seemed to be kinda a turning point for many scan tools where the older ones could not really be upgraded so if people were working on newer cars they had to buy a new tool which may not work well on pre 05 stuff so they hung onto the old tool for a while but now haven't used it for years.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

CadillacFanBob

I have a 1994 Cadillac service manual, 2 volume set, maybe that will help? what powertrain do you have?
Once I know the powertrain you have, I could post wiring diagram, and if any other information needed I could post that.

Bob
Frankfort, Illinois

dochawk

it's the 5.7 chevy engine mated to a 4L60e.

Before getting interrupted with a cat emergency (I really thought that she was going to have to be put down, but there's a chance), I got as far as pulling the relays.  I have two identical ones, Omron Dualtec 12088572, whereas the owner's manual says the there should be a 30A and a 50A.  Apparently Moron is a GM brand.   A whopping $7 each at O'Reilly, and made in Canada, not china.

I'll be testing them in the morning; I had to pull out my soldering station to fix these stupid cheap Chinese alligator cables. 

One of the two relays rattles, so . . .

I suppose I'll just replace them both, since it's cheap and they're probably the same age.

Is the "primary" the one that shuts on and off by thermostat (driver side), and the secondary the one that goes on when the compressor runs?

It's also occurred to me to simply hotwire both fans to stay on when the ignition is hot as a temporary measure--it's not like I'll be using it in less than 100F in the next couple of weeks.

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 08, 2022, 12:47:28 AMApparently the 'CD's' are better nowdays but in the past when I tried them they were complete garbage that someone with a cheap scanner made from bad 3rd gen photocopies.

The ones I have for my '72 are great--they even ran a decent OCR, so I can search the pdf for words.   But I'll check before I order; without that, I can scan the manual myself (I have a good law office grade scanner, that can also OCR).


1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

CadillacFanBob

The 1994 Cadillac service manual does not list 5.7 powertrain option, so I don't think it will help your situation. (wiring diagram maybe similar?)

Bob
Frankfort, Illinois

TJ Hopland

94 was a lot different engine than a 93 so even if it was listed it would not likely be very accurate.  Since that car was so different than other models at the time I could see it having its own manual.

One thing I have been curious about is why it had electric fans?   The Buicks had the old school clutch fans still in 93 for sure, I don't remember if they 94-96 went electric.  I would assume the 91-93 Caprice also had a clutch fan.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

dochawk

the wrong relays arrived today  ::)

I found I could easily disconnect the wiring to the fans from above by releasing the tabs on the plug with a small slot screwdriver:



turning it on, with the AX running, I got 14v on the driver side, and nothing on the passenger side.  swapping the relays, I got 0 on both.

I think this means my driver's side fan is bad, and I have picked up an electrical problem to the passenger side sine I started this.  hmm.

I'll try to measure passenger side voltage again when I have a helper to turn off and on that isn't in a hurry.

I'm wondering if the electric fans for a 2002 deville DHS fit.  some of the same aftermarket models come up on part store sites for both, claiming to fit each. but on closer look, these are general-purpose that *haven't* been measured for this, yet somehow pass the "fits filter."  grr.

And multiple delco motors, and multiple less expensive knockoffs.

I've also messaged the cd vendor to make certain that it actually has a searchable pdf, and not some screwball program that only runs under some particular version of windows.

As for power train, the 5.7 L05 engine was used as an option for the 1990-1992 Brougham, coupled to a 4L60, and as the only engine for the 1993 Fleetwood, coupled to, per most sources, the 4L60E transmission (I think the other ones are just using sloppy grammar ).

the 1994-1996 Fleetwood used a downtuned LS1 (Corvette) 350/5.7, letting it get out of its own way for the first time since the 70s . . ."

...

oh, for Heaven's sake:  it appears that the driver and passenger side fans use different motors!
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

the first relay arrived, and I put it in in place of the rattly one.  Now I get +14 to the driver side fan socket a couple of seconds after ignition with either relay in either place.

No voltage to the passenger side, no matter what I do.

And applying 12v directly to the now removed fan, that motor is dead.

I found the cooling fan control relay (B), in yet *another* fuse-like box.  Now, *why* this isn't in the cooling fan relay housing, or they aren't in with this, is another issue entirely.  I thought it was bad, found the same part in the '95 Eldorado parts car (four, in fact!), and it seemed bad the same way.  I'd misread the wiring on it.  In the process, I found a 50A fuse where there should have been a 30A for one of the fans; the '02 DHS waiting to be scrapped provided a 30A.

So my motor arrives tomorrow morning for the driver side (neither scrap car could provide one, as Cadillac last used it in '93).

For the passenger side, I confirmed that there is 14v to the relay.  I think that means that there must be a break between the relay and the fan. 

If so, I suspect that it's from the wires being out of their clip; I found them touching the fan, and haven't seen the fan run since.

There has been some *sloppy* work done on this car by prior owners.  Not even in the same league as on my '72, but I'm starting to be annoyed.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

Did you crack open some of those rattling relays to see what failed?   Wonder if it was solder that melted or some other piece that melted from over current?   Or was it just something that was a fatigue failure from years of operation?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Dave Shepherd

Not directly related to your issue, but I seem to remember  that under certaoin conditions only one fan is activated, not both.

The Tassie Devil(le)

G'day Dave,

Not sure what Cadillac did in USA, but here in Australia, where GM built the Holden Statesman, at one time used a pair of electric fans that ran on separate circuits, and would operate when required, with no problems.

Which ones, or what for, I cannot remember, but, at the time, I thought it was a good way of doing stuff.

Bruce. >:D   
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Dave Shepherd

I think when the ac condenser reached its pre-programmed pressure limit, both fans were activated.

dochawk

Quote from: TJ Hopland on September 11, 2022, 11:25:57 AMDid you crack open some of those rattling relays to see what failed?

Not yet but I expect to when I'm done.  Only one rattles, and the other works interchangeably with the new one.

given that it was nearly 30 years old . . .


Quote from: Dave Shepherd on September 11, 2022, 02:20:20 PMNot directly related to your issue, but I seem to remember  that under certaoin conditions only one fan is activated, not both.

My understanding is that the passenger side is the primary, which comes on and off based on coolant (block?) temperature, while the driver side is the secondary, which comes on whenever the compressor runs, and *also* turns on the primary. 

But I have no basis for that other than talking to someone familiar with many cars, but not this model.

I suppose I could drive a few miles to heart up and see if it runs, but I'd rather know that sitting off while the other is running is not a deviation all by itself.

My motor arrived this morning, and installation was trivial.

A note for those reading this later:  use a torque wrench to install the bolt holding the fan!  Mine came with dire warnings that over-torquing could cause something to bind and the motor to fail, which would not be covered by warranty.  It called for 25-30 ft-lbs.

I fired up the engine, and the fan didn't spin.

Uhh, I guess it helps to plug it in.

I couldn't, so I removed the fan again.  The two lugs on this Chinese replacement weren't where they should have been; I bent them slightly with a screwdriver, and it snapped right on.

So I now have the driver side fan running.

I have ground to the passenger side plug, but according to my new lamp probe, the positive wire isn't hot.

So does anyone know if the primary fan *should* be on on a cold engine with the AC on?

I should also note that, at least on a hot engine, the passenger fan *was* on when we first noted that the driver side fan wasn't running.

as a backup plan, does anyone have any bright ideas on where to tap juice to simply have the fan run whenever the car is on?  (I have only tomorrow before I fly out for a few days, and want to drive 400+ mies to see my wife ASAP!)

1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

I'm going to start another thread about the relay holder.

The driver side fan is now working correctly.

The passenger side motor doesn't seen to respond at  to +12 applied directly, but one of my alligator cables may have been bad; I'll have to test again.  The motor shows about the same resistance as the one that works on the driver side.

Also, while the +14 comes on when it should to the coil pin on the socket for the passenger side relay, and there is continuity from pin 87 of the relay socket to the fan socket, there is no +14 in that socket.  The other socket pin is properly connected to ground.

Unless another search finds a blown fuse that I've missed on all the prior checks, or unless I get some progress opening the socket box in the other thread, I suspect I'll be tapping something to just leave it always on.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

I've got it running! (but I'll still need a permanent fix.

This is the inside of the relay socket.  As it is upside down, positions are flipped from front to back.

Some testing with a probe showed the logic of the things.

IMG_0831.jpg

Light blue signals to turn on fan with 12v; dark blue with white stripe is the other end of the relay coil, and ground.

Well, it's supposed to be.

Grey is for the AC/secondary fan to turn on, and black is ground for that socket.

Properly working, both sides of coil are grounded when the fan should be off.

Connected to the positive battery terminal, though, I only got a weak, feeble glow from my probe to dark blue.

I used alligator clips to jumper from black to dark blue, and everything runs correctly.

I obviously need a better permanent solution, but this is a start.

I'll start a separate thread about how to bypass bad socket wiring, as it has wider application.


1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

[this is a spinoff from the thread about the cooling fans not running on my Fleetwood, cooling fan not running thread.

I have a bad ground wire going to a socket.  In this case, it's a fan relay socket.

IMG_0831.jpg

The bad one is the dark blue with white wire indicated by the dark blue arrow; it's supposed to be ground.

What is the best way to provide ground to this socket?  My temporary solution is an alligator cable jumper, but I need something more robust for the long term.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

My first attempt, with alligator clips on the bottom, worked well for the 15 mile each way trip to a club meeting tuesday night. 

After each, I checked with an infrared gun, and got temperatures on the block fluctuating around 210F by a couple of degrees either way.

So I headed to Tucson yesterday.

at Kingman, just over 100 miles, I stopped for gas and checked, and still there.

Add another couple of hundred miles, and something gave, and the temp indicator came on early in phoenix.

I ended up doing some more experimenting, and  went into Home Depot.  Multiple times. 

[a couple of hours of experimenting with what fit omitted]

The male spade connector is the same size as the relay plugs. So I bought some that would fit 10-12 gauge wire, a foot of 10 gauge wire, some ring connectors to fit 10-12, and some washers to fit the 6-32 screws on the toggle switch, which I also bought.  The toggle is rated for 10A at 277v , and 20 at 120.  (The motors may briefly exceed that when starting to spin).

So I built:

IMG_0840.jpg

I tried it, and it worked wonderfully with the engine off.

So I kicked it over, and now the *other* fan--the one with the ew motor--wasn't spinning up.

Tired of messing around, I went back in for the fourth time and simply bought another toggle.

Yielding

IMG_0841.jpg

I then topped off the radiator and overflow, turned on my fans, and drove off relieved.

Well, for a few miles.

The light came back on, I pulled over, and was horrified to see that I'd forgot to put the radiator cap back on! ::)

So there in the rain, I mixed my remaining distilled water with antifreeze a couple of times into a empty liter water bottle, turned on engine, added, turned off, repeat.

This let me go the two miles to a Pilot station that actually had a couple of gallons of distilled water (I'd gotten additional antifreeze at Home Depot, but they didn't have distilled).

Then mixed a gallon, added with engine running to full and then to the overflow.  I left the fans on the whole time . . .

At which point, I was able to drive the remaining 100+ miles without incident.

I certainly need to insulate these toggles so that the exposed screws/pins don't touch ground.

But this gives me a few weeks to come up with a more permanent solution.  It will be a while before it is cool enough for excessive cooling to be an issue in either Las Vegas or Tucson . . .

I do, though, think that I'll want to keep a switch, probably starting a timer or running off a sensor,  to throw both switches and similarly for the water pump.  Or maybe to just do this automatically when the water is above a certain temperature (drive a power MOSFET from the temperature line?)
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

TJ Hopland

So you have determined that the power wiring is fine and its the control ground that is presumably controlled by the ECU isn't happening?   Have you been able to either through the self diagnostics or scan tool see what temp the ECU thinks the engine is?  And or if its commanding the fan to turn on?

Nice on the road fix for bypassing the relays.  Before you quit your day job and try to market it note that there are already such products on the market.  Here is an example available from pretty much anywhere that has auto parts.   They are relay sized units with a manual switch on the top.  The specific kit I linked to also has a wire loop on them that passes the load so you can use a clamp on amp meter to do a current draw test on things like fans and pumps during troubleshooting.

https://ipatools.com/product/9038a-relay-bypass-kit-with-amp-loop/
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason