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Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: David #19063 on November 27, 2008, 11:39:02 AM

Title: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: David #19063 on November 27, 2008, 11:39:02 AM
Good-bye Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab.


GM To Dump Pontiac?

NEW YORK November 26, 2008; Jonathan Stempel writing for Reuters reported that General Motors Corp is mulling whether to shed its Pontiac, Saab and Saturn brands, as well as its Hummer brand, as part of a plan to win $12 billion of U.S. government loans, Bloomberg News said on Wednesday, citing people familiar with the matter.

GM was not immediately available for comment.

Federal lawmakers last week rejected pleas from GM, Ford Motor Co and Chrysler LLC for $25 billion of loans, and asked the automakers to submit detailed turnaround plans.

The lawmakers are scheduled to reconvene during week or December 8 to review any plans and consider aid. Some analysts have said GM's remaining equity value could be essentially wiped out by any government recapitalization.

GM has said it might run short of operating cash by early 2009 if it doesn't find help.

GM directors are scheduled to review a proposal November 30 and December 1, the Bloomberg article said, citing people familiar with the plans.

Shares of GM closed Wednesday up $1.25 at $4.81 after Deutsche Bank analyst Rod Lache said the chances of a bailout have improved because of growing concern that doing nothing would further damage the U.S. economy.

GM's other U.S. brands are Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC. The automaker dropped its Oldsmobile brand earlier this decade. Private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP controls Chrysler.

Editing for Reuters by Christian Wiessner
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: TJ Hopland on November 27, 2008, 12:12:05 PM
Its good to see that they are at least asking for a plan before they give a way the money.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on November 27, 2008, 03:39:55 PM
Sort of surprising to hear, as its been the popular thinking that Buick would be the next division to go.  Sort of makes sense to let Pontiac go, as it used to be their performance division, but with them getting rid of the Bonneville, screwing up both the Gran Prixs and GTO's, they completely got out of that market, while it appears that Buick is starting to their act together, by eliminating low selling models and narrowing themselves down to just 3 models, 2 sedans and 1 crossover the Enclave, which replaced the popular Rendezvous, we had 2 of them.  In addition they offer the Lucerne and Lacrosse in an upscale Super series.

In any event, unless GM stops dragging their feet in making changes, they could be on the outside looking in!
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: David #19063 on November 27, 2008, 04:38:40 PM
Buick is the biggest selling car in China. 

They have models there we do not have.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Ted in Olympia WA on November 27, 2008, 08:07:47 PM
I still miss the Olds.  Also over the years I thought that Pontiac had the best stying up front.

But I guess this process all started in the mid to late 70's when all the brands became mostly the same. 

Only Cadillac (mostly) kept it own idenity.  But some models did share, like the fleetwood.

TED
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Eric S. Maypother #15104 on November 27, 2008, 08:29:33 PM
Even though I've only owned Cadillac and plan to only own Cadillac's it's still to bad to see some of the sister cars go, but if it needs to be done to save the rest, namely Cadillac I can live with it.

I agree with the other posters to, some of these cars are just the other brands cars with different tail lights and trim.

I don't think many of us will miss the Saab's though, I thought the Saturn's seemed popular, the Hummers are basically a square body on a Tahoe frame.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Joe Manna on November 27, 2008, 10:14:46 PM
If the CEO's of the big 3 didn't show up in their own private jets,they just might gotten some money from the gov't.GM messed up big time when they did away with the RWD Roadmasters and the 98's.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Brian Daum on November 28, 2008, 02:26:56 PM
To me it`s nothing but sad, sad, sad...

Think of the Chieftain`s, Bonneville`s, Trans Am`s and GTO`s

What have this crazy world come to?
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Ted in Olympia WA on November 28, 2008, 08:39:11 PM
I think just about all Saturns now are Opels and made in Germany.  So to get rid of Saturn I guess that GM will sell the Opel division or quit importing them to the US.

I drove a new Saturn the other day and it was a very nice driving car.

TED
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Brian Daum on November 29, 2008, 05:25:34 AM
Opel is hardly worth selling either. They are just about bankrupt. In the old days Opel was a car to be reckoned with.  You rarely see new Opels anymore on the roads. Opel and Saab are not worth much.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Ted in Olympia WA on November 29, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
I thought that Opel was a fairly popular car in Europe.  My co-worker is German and he said and the the Opel brand is very popular in Germany.

This is from Wikipedia
Saturns are now virtually identical to certain Opel models. For example, the 2008 Saturn Vue is a rebadged Opel Antara, while the Opel GT is based on the Saturn Sky. The Opel Astra is imported as the Saturn Astra (replacing the Ion as the entry-level car), and the Saturn Aura is similar to the Opel Vectra. The Saturn Astra is built in Antwerp, Belgium.

I know, what does this have to do with Cadillac?

TED

I never did like Saab.

Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: homeonprunehill on November 30, 2008, 12:11:19 AM
11-29-08
TED,Let's not forget the Cadillac-CATERA by OPEL, that zigged when it should have zagged! Which  brings mje to a funny (Strange) story I met the grand son of DR Chkalov and her aero plane desinger husband. He was driving a Big Black-Cheverolt with fizzle Dice hanging from the rear view mirrow I asked him What is tjhe most popular car in RUSSELL today I throught he would say MB but he superised me by saying ford-TAURIS. According to him the MB would not stand-up-to the rought road in Russell
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Brian Daum on November 30, 2008, 05:58:26 AM
Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 29, 2008, 08:15:49 PM
I thought that Opel was a fairly popular car in Europe.  My co-worker is German and he said and the the Opel brand is very popular in Germany.

This is from Wikipedia
Saturns are now virtually identical to certain Opel models. For example, the 2008 Saturn Vue is a rebadged Opel Antara, while the Opel GT is based on the Saturn Sky. The Opel Astra is imported as the Saturn Astra (replacing the Ion as the entry-level car), and the Saturn Aura is similar to the Opel Vectra. The Saturn Astra is built in Antwerp, Belgium.

I know, what does this have to do with Cadillac?

TED

I never did like Saab.




The Opel WAS popular in Europe, not anymore. Even recently when times were good, Opel sales have gone down, their products just do not sell, compared to the other popular German brands.  But thru the years they were very popular. You had popular models like the Kapitan, Commodore, Rekord and Kadett. They even had styling influences from the US, the old Kapitans even had wrap-around windshields.

Opel just recently asked the German Government for financial aid, and they have also been forced to lay off thousands of workers. They are probably heading down the drain as well.

The Saab has always been a bit strange car, although somewhat popular in Northern Europe. (Good winter driving abilities)  Saab has had troubles for years, and it surprises me that GM didn`t sell them earlier. These days they are not worth much. They are asking the Swedish Government for back up too. The Trollhattan community solely depends on Saab, and will be hard stricken if Saab closes down.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 09:32:27 AM
When I went to Saturn about a month ago they had a lot of 2008 models still on the lot; over half of the cars.  I asked them if there was a good deal on the 2008 and they said no, we only do sticker price but they are about $500 cheaper than the 2009 models.  At a time when no one is selling cars Saturn is still trying to get sticker price only; not a good business plan.  Now I see they are doing "red tag specials" but so is everyone else.  I find that it is fun to deal on a new car and if I can't then I'm not going to buy.

I came very close to buying a 2008 HHR SS (used buy with 2k miles) but we just could not come to a meeting of the minds.  We were about $500 difference (I offered 18k but they wanted 18.5k and it still for sale) but still about 8k off the sticker price of a 2009 new one. 

I see you can save 5-6k on a new Cadillac but they are still 40k to buy.  I don't see a lot of buyers for these.

Times are tough for car dealers.

I'm glad I did not buy, I just do not need a new car.

TED
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: TJ Hopland on November 30, 2008, 10:08:08 AM
I have heard that the small independent used dealers have some pretty good deals going but otherwise even the 'we just bought out another dealer inventory reduction sale' is not enough to get people to buy. Makes me wonder if maybe there is a deeper 'plan' going on somewhere higher up the ladder.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on November 30, 2008, 12:23:14 PM
Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 09:32:27 AM
When I went to Saturn about a month ago they had a lot of 2008 models still on the lot; over half of the cars.  I asked them if there was a good deal on the 2008 and they said no, we only do sticker price but they are about $500 cheaper than the 2009 models.  At a time when no one is selling cars Saturn is still trying to get sticker price only; not a good business plan.  Now I see they are doing "red tag specials" but so is everyone else.  I find that it is fun to deal on a new car and if I can't then I'm not going to buy.

I came very close to buying a 2008 HHR SS (used buy with 2k miles) but we just could not come to a meeting of the minds.  We were about $500 difference (I offered 18k but they wanted 18.5k and it still for sale) but still about 8k off the sticker price of a 2009 new one. 

I see you can save 5-6k on a new Cadillac but they are still 40k to buy.  I don't see a lot of buyers for these.

Times are tough for car dealers.

I'm glad I did not buy, I just do not need a new car.

TED

Ted, if you don't need a new car, then why were you out looking around?  Don't you think things are tough enough for car salesmen, "the little guys", then for you to go window shopping and wasting their time?  Sure it might be fun for you, but these men and women are now hanging on shoe string, and to have fun at their expense, doesn't seem right to me.  Sure there was a time when we all played the game of haggling with the car salesmen, but we are in different times.  How would you like it if someone came to where you worked, just to have fun with you, while you were trying to earn a living?
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: TJ Hopland on November 30, 2008, 01:49:07 PM
Sounds to me like Ted has decided what he wants to pay for that car.  He made an offer, they did not accept it.  Sounds like a pretty typical buyer / seller situation to me.  I dont see a problem.   I dont 'need' a new car either but if there was a good enough deal on something I like I would get one. Only way to find out is to stop at a dealer and see what they have.   My last new car had 200 miles on it when I got it.  It was a new at the time Hemi.  How many of those 40? people just wanted to drive a hemi?   How many bought one or maybe something else from that dealer?
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on November 30, 2008, 03:09:24 PM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on November 30, 2008, 01:49:07 PM
Sounds to me like Ted has decided what he wants to pay for that car.  He made an offer, they did not accept it.  Sounds like a pretty typical buyer / seller situation to me.  I dont see a problem.   I dont 'need' a new car either but if there was a good enough deal on something I like I would get one. Only way to find out is to stop at a dealer and see what they have.   My last new car had 200 miles on it when I got it.  It was a new at the time Hemi.  How many of those 40? people just wanted to drive a hemi?   How many bought one or maybe something else from that dealer?


I really don't see the logic of buying a car just because its "a sweetheart of a deal".  If that is the case, then the whole country should be out buying cars, as the discounts being offered by all the American manufacturers are unheard of!  He already was looking at a $8000 discount on a car, and held off for another $500.  What else did he want, free gas for the life of the car?  It seems to me that the only reasons a person buys a new car, whether new or used is because they need one, or like myself, wants to have a new car, every 3 years.  When its decided to get a new one, I agree that we should shop around and try to get the best deal.

No one hates the whole new car buying experience more then me.  I am the last one to try and defend dealers and sales persons, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the dealers and sales people are trying to make a living, and as such, especially now, when they are all fightning for survivial, and we shouldn't be playing games for fun with them.  I just hope that these deals are still lin existence when my lease expires in another year.

Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 04:57:14 PM
I was not playing with them and I was at that time ready to buy a new car.  I have excellent credit and could buy any car I want, but I'm not going to pay more than current market conditions just to make the salesman happy.  Also I admit I'm a bit cheap and about 20k is my limit for a new car but I did buy a 2006 350Z for $29,000 for my wife.  What women want women get, but this car was for me.

On the HHR I was not the one playing games the salesman was.  I was the one that found the car that was about 60 miles away.  I offered him by phone what I thought was a fair price.  He came back with come on up and look at it, I will even give you a free dinner just for coming.  I told him that I did not want to waste his time unless he was willing to accept my offer.  He told me that he thought a deal could be made and I should come and see him, I told him I would the next day.  The next day I called him and told him again that I was not willing to come up unless I had a firm committment on price, he said he had to ask his boss and came back with the $500 more price.  I told him that I was firm on my price, he said he would call me back but he never did.   I'm not even 100% sure he would have honered his $18,500 price in person.

Who is the one playing the game.  I would never consider willing to spend $18,000 a game.  If the car is exactly as advertised they would of had a deal.

No one ever "needs" a new car; there are a ton of used ones out there.  I have purchased a few new cars in the past and I always make them go through the full circle and play the dealers against each other.  No matter how popular a car is I will never pay more than sticker price on a new car (currently I would not pay even close) and I will never pay more than blue book on a used car.  This keeps me from ever getting a new Shelby or Challenger.

If this makes the poor dealership and saleman un-happy, so be it.  They make it up by taking advantage of younger inexperience buyers.

I had it narrowed down to a few models I wanted but could not make a deal that made me feel good.   Most GM dealers would say "you should have been here last month when we had employee pricing, they were cheper then".   So I could have purchased it cheaper last month but this month I have to pay more; does this make sense?

Anyway I came to my senses and decided to continue to drive my 2003 Venture a bit longer.  The main thing is that I need a car that will haul pretty good size box of Cadillac parts to the post office/FedEx; the HHR SS would have done this and been a lot more fun to drive.  I like new cars but I don't need one.

I have people beat me down on my prices all the time and many times it means that I don't make a sale.  But with my parts there are a bit limited market for both sides.  I also stand behind the parts I sell and will do anything to make the customer happy, not all dealers you can say this for.

There is not a lack of new cars or good deals; there is a lack of qualified buyers and new cars that people are willing to buy.  In 1991 you could buy a new GEO that got 58 mpg, now the best you can do is in the high 30's.  New car makers have put quality and research on hold.  You cannot buy a better car today than you could 15 years ago; only a new one to replace the one you alraeady have.

TED
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on November 30, 2008, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: Ted in Olympia WA on November 30, 2008, 04:57:14 PM
I was not playing with them and I was at that time ready to buy a new car.  I have excellent credit and could buy any car I want, but I'm not going to pay more than current market conditions just to make the salesman happy.  No one ever "needs" a new car; there are a ton of used ones out there.  I have purchased a few new cars in the past and I always make them go through the full circle and play the dealers against each other.  No matter how popular a car is I will never pay more than sticker price on a new car (now I won't pay close) and I will never pay more than blue book on a used car.  This keeps me from ever getting a new Shelby or Challenger.

I this makes the poor dealership and salesman unhappy, so be it.  They make it up by taking advantage of younger inexperience buyers.

I had it narrowed down to a few models I wanted but could not make a deal that made me feel good.   Most GM dealers would say "you should have been here last month when we had employee pricing, they were cheaper then".   So I could have purchased it cheaper last month but this month I have to pay more; does this make sense?

Anyway I came to my senses and decided to continue to drive my 2003 Venture a bit longer.  The main thing is that I need a car that will haul pretty good size box of Cadillac parts to the post office/FedEx.  It would have been very nice to get one that also gets a bit better mileage and was nicer/newer to drive.  I like new cars but I don't need one.

I have people beat me down on my prices all the time and many times it means that I don't make a sale.  But with my parts there are a bit limited market for both sides.

There is not a lack of new cars or good deals; there is a lack of qualified buyers or new cars that people are willing to buy.  In 1991 you could buy a new GEO that got 58 mpg, now the best you can do is in the high 30's.  New car makers have put quality and research on hold.  You cannot buy a better car today than you could 15 years ago; only a new one to replace the one you already have.

TED

Ted, I believe that for the most part we are on the same page.  Myself I have always wanted a new car?  Why?  Sort of long story, but basically I hated having to deal with service departments, more then I did the sales department, so once out of warranty, I got a new car.  Cost effective?  Not at all, but it works for me.  About 20 years ago I discovered the joys of leasing, which basically was no haggling!  Of course as leasing became more popular and cut down on new car sales, the dealers found ways to pad the profit, such as clerical fees of about $500 for having a clerk run the papers through a computer!  Its still easier to lease then buy, buy just finding out the residual.

Allow me to offer another contrarian view point.  In spite of what the big 3 manufactures say, the results of them being put out of business, will not be as devastating as they make it out to be, at least to the workers and suppliers.  Why?  Because the 10 million cars that the manufactures wont be producing any more, will be made by the better managed manufacturers such as Toyota, and these cars will need radios, door knobs etc.

All I am saying is that currently the dealers and sales people are in a desperate situation, and yes brought on by themselves, and I don't see no reason to kick a man or woman when they are down.  When it comes to replace my leased vehicle, I will give GM first shot at me, as I have done since 1966.  I will approach them with a sense of "I am here to help you, what can you do for me?".  If they start with their usual selling practices, I am out of there, as I did when I last was shopping for a replacement vehicle.  If none of them are willing to deal, then I will look elsewhere.

Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on December 03, 2008, 09:08:02 AM
Here's the latest update from todays NY Times.

To make its case for the loans, G.M. said it would make top-to-bottom cuts in its money-losing North American operations.

G.M. said it planned to focus on four core brands â€" Chevrolet, Cadillac, Buick and GMC â€" and sell, eliminate or consolidate the Saturn, Saab, Hummer and Pontiac brands.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: David #19063 on December 03, 2008, 05:03:00 PM
Maybe GM would be smart and consolidate Pontiac with Olds and maybe on have one, maybe two specialty models each...something that is different than Buick and Chevy?
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on December 03, 2008, 05:29:20 PM
Quote from: David #19063 on December 03, 2008, 05:03:00 PM
Maybe GM would be smart and consolidate Pontiac with Olds and maybe on have one, maybe two specialty models each...something that is different than Buick and Chevy?

Are you suggesting resurrecting the Oldsmobile?  What would the car be called?  The Pontmobile?  Oldsiac?  Personally I think that getting rid of Pontiac is the way to go.  Since they got rid of the Bonneville, GTO, Gran Prix, they gave up the performance niche, which is how they fit into the GM lineup.  With Chevrolet, Buick, and Cadillac, they can cover all markets.  Chevrolet has 17 models including the Corvette.  This can cover most needs of consumers in all price ranges.  Cadillac still remains the luxury division of GM.  Buick offers a luxury car that is a little more affordable then a Cadillac, and they bring along a luxury crossover the Enclave.  Lets face it people, the days of GM's dominance in the car market has been on steady decline, and now its time to make gut wrenching, hard decisions, and put tradition aside for survival.  Did you ever in your wildest dreams think that Cadillacs salvation would be in producing a truck?
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: David #19063 on December 03, 2008, 11:12:10 PM
Yes, the nameplate for one or two models only, maybe the 98, Starfire, or 442.

Same for Pontiac, one or two models only, Bonneville, Starchief, Grand Prix, or Firebird/Trans Am.

Sold at a joint Oldsmobile / Pontiac Dealer.  Then GM can use these names and keep the heritage alive.

Like you said, Chevy has 17 models or whatever it is now, that is where GM is killing itself. 

Way too many models for each car line.  And when Chevy, Olds, and Pontiac had so many models, it got so watered down.  How many different Cutless models did they have in the mid-80's, a plethera if I remember correctly.

GM should looks back to the late 50's early 60's when it had only a few car designs for each car line.  But each car line was different from each other.  No one would mistake a '59 Cadillac from a '59 Buick from a '59 Pontiac from a '59 Olds or '59 Chevy.

GM needs to make fewer cars but make them better.

Kind of like very nice restaurants have small menu's with superb food.  As opposed to places where you can get 500 different meals 24 hours a day and they are all mediocre at best and some downright lousy meals.

Totally make Olds and Pontiac niche market cars.

I don't think I am explaining this well as I desire to describe it.
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: XGLEGAL on December 04, 2008, 03:16:08 AM
Personally, I hope Pontiac does not go the way of Olds, especially because I am seriously considering a G8 GT.  If something HAS to go, I think Pontiac should stay and eliminate Buick instead - at least here in the USA, Pontiac has a broader product offering.  Buick has essentially three models??  (LaCrosse, Lucerne and Enclave if I am not mistaken).  All nice cars, but very limited - and the demographic of Buick sedan buyers is constantly decreasing due to the march of time.....
  Buick appears to be big in some overseas markets such as China, and this is obviously a big consideration at the corporate level.  But just what is the reason for existence (raison d' etre'??!!) of Buick in the US market??  As for Pontiac, efforts have been steered to make it more of a performance division, and I think many of its current models attest to this.  The G8 GT, for instance, is a performance monster at an incredibly compelling price in my view.  Although made in Australia, it is still GM.  In short, I see Pontiac being able to play the role of a legitimate alternative to Chevy for some buyers who prefer a sportier car on performance/appearance.  This is an area where GM can appeal to a younger buyer, because Buick certainly doesn't have any entry-level models.
  The other question in my mind is the rationale for the elimination of brands as far as the dealerships are concerned.  At least here in SoCal, the majority of the dealers are organized as GMC/Buick/Pontiac - I have no idea about other parts of the country.  But I would see some serious problems for a dealer having just GMC and Buick.
     I found this thread interesting and look forward to the comments of others.  Regards, Xavier
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on December 04, 2008, 04:22:39 AM
Quote from: David #19063 on December 03, 2008, 11:12:10 PM
Yes, the nameplate for one or two models only, maybe the 98, Starfire, or 442.

Same for Pontiac, one or two models only, Bonneville, Starchief, Grand Prix, or Firebird/Trans Am.


I see where you are going, and with all due respect, "retro" is not the way to go to keep competitive.  Keep in mind that these names are only significant to us older buyers, not to today's younger buyers.

QuoteSold at a joint Oldsmobile / Pontiac Dealer.  Then GM can use these names and keep the heritage alive.

Again, history and heritage is passe.  Even Nipper the dog, who had his beginnings with Edison has faded away.

QuoteLike you said, Chevy has 17 models or whatever it is now, that is where GM is killing itself.

Not really as there is not redundancy with the models. 

QuoteWay too many models for each car line.  And when Chevy, Olds, and Pontiac had so many models, it got so watered down.  How many different Cutlass models did they have in the mid-80's, a plethora if I remember correctly.

Once again that was in the past, when GM was still the king of auto manufacturers.  As time went by and GM lost market share, they began to dissolve models and finally an entire division, Oldsmobile.

QuoteGM should looks back to the late 50's early 60's when it had only a few car designs for each car line.  But each car line was different from each other.  No one would mistake a '59 Cadillac from a '59 Buick from a '59 Pontiac from a '59 Olds or '59 Chevy.

We can't go back to the future.  First of all, there was only one design for each line.  A Chevy Biscayne looked like a Impala, except for the extra trim the Impala had.  Also keep in mind that back then there were really only 3 manufactures that the public bought cars from, GM, Ford and Chrysler.  Today the choices of manufacturers is much greater, so much so, that you don't hear the terms, "foreign cars" and "the imports" used anymore.         


QuoteGm needs to make fewer cars but make them better.

Wait a minute, first you want them to resurrect the Oldsmobile, and now you want them to make fewer cars!  Which way do you want it?  As for be better, from everything I read, American cars are just as good as the "imports"

QuoteKind of like very nice restaurants have small menu's with superb food.  As opposed to places where you can get 500 different meals 24 hours a day and they are all mediocre at best and some downright lousy meals.

Not necessarily apples with apples, but I will go with the flow.  Yes nice restaurants have small menus, sort of like Rolls Royce and Bentley has, but for the vast majority of of car buyers, they have to eat at the Waffle House, which by the way, has some really great waffles.

QuoteTotally make Olds and Pontiac niche market cars.

And what niche would that be?  Myself I think GM has to be more concerned with selling cars to average car buyers, then worry about niches.

QuoteI don't think I am explaining this well as I desire to describe it.

I think I get the gist of what you are trying to say, and yes it would nice to return to the good old days, but this is the 21st century, and like the saying goes "You can't go home again".
Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on December 04, 2008, 04:37:00 AM
Quote from: XGLEGAL on December 04, 2008, 03:16:08 AM
Personally, I hope Pontiac does not go the way of Olds, especially because I am seriously considering a G8 GT.  If something HAS to go, I think Pontiac should stay and eliminate Buick instead - at least here in the USA, Pontiac has a broader product offering.  Buick has essentially three models??  (LaCrosse, Lucerne and Enclave if I am not mistaken).  All nice cars, but very limited - and the demographic of Buick sedan buyers is constantly decreasing due to the march of time.....

Yes, Pontiac has a broader product line, and I suspect that is their problem.  They just help GM to be overweight in products.  I have to admit to being somewhat surprised to hear that GM was considering getting rid of Pontiac, as the common belief was that Buick was the one to go.  I am just guessing, but maybe the powers to be, think that with Buick only having 3 models, they are the one to keep.  Like I posted before, their sedans are nice fit in between a Chevy and a Cadillac, and while I might tend to agree that Buick's styling and appeal might have been declining, I think in recent years that have designed their cars to be more appealing.


 
QuoteBuick appears to be big in some overseas markets such as China, and this is obviously a big consideration at the corporate level.  But just what is the reason for existence (raison d' etre'??!!) of Buick in the US market??  As for Pontiac, efforts have been steered to make it more of a performance division, and I think many of its current models attest to this.  The G8 GT, for instance, is a performance monster at an incredibly compelling price in my view.  Although made in Australia, it is still GM.  In short, I see Pontiac being able to play the role of a legitimate alternative to Chevy for some buyers who prefer a sportier car on performance/appearance.  This is an area where GM can appeal to a younger buyer, because Buick certainly doesn't have any entry-level models.

Here's where I show my age.  Yes while the G8's are performance cars, to me they pale in comparison to the Bonnevilles, Gran Prix's, GTO's and even the 2+2's of the past.
 

QuoteThe other question in my mind is the rationale for the elimination of brands as far as the dealerships are concerned.  At least here in SoCal, the majority of the dealers are organized as GMC/Buick/Pontiac - I have no idea about other parts of the country.  But I would see some serious problems for a dealer having just GMC and Buick.
     I found this thread interesting and look forward to the comments of others.  Regards, Xavier

Ah dealerships!  Even the dealerships are feeling the pain inflicted by GMs failures.  I have been reading about more and more of them going under in recent history.  I think dealerships are going the way of the corner drugstore, with many dealerships sort of being part of a chain.  Not necessarily like Walgreens, but many dealerships are owned by the same organization.

Title: Re: Good-bye Pontiac
Post by: Johnny on December 06, 2008, 01:51:59 PM
How about Pontiac? The sports-oriented brand in many ways is a clone of Chevy vehicles, but with different skins. Still, the ax could fall on it, just as GM rid itself of the Oldsmobile brand years ago (a brand the world has not missed at all). Both brands ended up being perceived as niche-y, and an automobile "for every purse and purpose" just won't cut it in 2009 going forward. Sorry, Alfred Sloan.