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What they didn't tell U.

Started by fishnjim, January 20, 2023, 02:17:03 PM

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fishnjim

All we heard was the gas price was coming down...  The differential between regular and the other grade and diesel did not.  They can't add ethanol to diesel.   It can only come through bio-diesel.
Crude has actually gone up the past several weeks. 
Carb guys should see this.
It's pretty long for the content, so skip along if time is short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHj5ahyCsUw

Scott Nellis

   You were right Jim, it is a little long-winded, but folks with carbs should watch it. I live in Canada, but the same shenanigans have probably been going on up here. I am fortunate in that I am a 7 minute drive from a Shell station that offers high octane non-ethanol gas. That is all I use in my Cadillacs and anything else I have with a carb, including my chainsaw and weedwacker. My only issue is that when I go on a long trip I am at the mercy of the gas stations I can find along the way. Thanks for posting.
1957 Eureka Hearse
1965 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Fleetwood Brougham
1970 Superior Hearse

64\/54Cadillacking

#2
I was able to watch the whole thing.
That is some shady stuff what the EPA did with that emergency order nationwide. I understand that oil prices including gas prices being outrageously expensive over $7-8 a gallon in many parts of CA last year, but to not at least notify the public and hide the fact that these oil companies were allowed to put up to 15% or more ethanol in the gas last summer LEGALLY BTW is absolutely despicable and should be against the law no matter how bad our oil crisis ever becomes.. This not only helps reduce the gasoline consumption for Big Oil, but it also allows the oil companies to rake in even more profits.

This for sure messes with our carbs and engines tune and definitely reduces our gas mileage. Not only that but the damage and overheating that occurs internally in older engines with no knock sensors all of this extra ethanol that can be detrimental.

Lately I have noticed a slight decrease in my fuel economy in my Lexus daily driver as I've lost about 2-3 mpgs compared to 2021 when I was averaging about 20 mpg,  now im down to 17.3 mpg and my driving habits have been consistently the same.

So something is definitely wrong here, I even just replaced the spark plugs, my tires are still good and inflated to the proper PSI levels, and did an oil change a month ago, and I'm still averaging 17.3 mpg. . My 64 Cad was running pretty rough and I had to advance the timing a bit which now makes complete sense since the oil companies are most likely continuing to use this emergency order and increase ethanol content in the fuel without labeling it on the pumps.

What I also got from that video is how Top Tier fuel really does make a difference as far as reducing carbon deposit on the valves. The explanation of the 4 cylinder BMW engine they spoke of,  that's also in the Mini Cooper how that engine is a good one and doesn't have problems in the BMW, because most likely the owners of that BMW takes his/her car to say a Chevron or Shell or any station that uses Top Tier gas, while the Mini Cooper owner uses cheap gas that's not Top Tier, and that engine has extremely bad carbon deposits that has ruined the engine completely as they mentioned.

That was a very interesting and enlightening video to watch. I always felt in my gut and even the way sometimes my cars have run lately, that every time I would fill them up with fresh gas, the worse they would run. It's like I constantly have to readjust the idle mixture screws in the carb and advance the timing a bit for the smoothness to return. I truly feel like this is a sneaky way for the EPA and the U.S. government to slowly get ride of ICE vehicles deliberately and legally without the fear of being sued from millions of American vehicle owners that have possibly suffered  damaged engines.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

V63

My thought is they can advertise 'top tier' gasoline all they want ... then water it down with ethanol?

64\/54Cadillacking

#4
Quote from: V63 on January 21, 2023, 05:54:05 AMMy thought is they can advertise 'top tier' gasoline all they want ... then water it down with ethanol?

Pretty much. I'm not entirely sure if the EPA's emergency order to limit the 10% ethanol content is still in place or not.

I found this article, but there's plenty more info online about this waiver.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-issues-emergency-waiver-allowing-sales-of-higher-ethanol-fuel-starting-may-1-11651253609

This was predicted back in 2019 that E15 would be a norm in the near future.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/e15-ethanol-is-coming-like-it-or-not/
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

M. Bankes

Well now I know why the price of diesel never came down !

fishnjim

I knew of the waivers but it didn't click nor the extent of the issue.
It clicked for me, when someone had posted recently that their car ran better with ~6 deg of timing.   We all thought is was equipment related because we don't usually suspect the fuel supply. 

Ironically, I've proposed this solution in the past, but we have to have different stable grades for different vehicles, but when the carbs aren't recognized as anything but clunkers we're sunk.  It can be handled if the level doesn't change and you jet & time properly.  I'm sure we've had "bad gas" many times before even back in the day we used to say that.
It's one thing to have a stable supply and another to have a variable adjustment vehicle to handle it. 
A realist would say we should be glad we have fuel.   

Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225

This explains the sudden problem with Carbon fouled plugs in my 54's 331 V8. I also had to advance the timing and upgrade to a Pertronix ignitor system that produces a hotter spark to correct the problem. When I had my Carb rebuilt I was told that the bad gas (ethanol) deposits were thick.. And I drive that car a lot. The car never sits over a period of a couple of days. The guy that rebuilt my Carter rebuilds carbs for a living. He is a true expert in his field. That is ALL he does in his shop. He told me that he has never seen anything like this before. The new fuel is silently destroying, rubber seals, engines, carbs etc... with no real help in sight unless you are fortunate enough to live close to a Non Ethanol source. My closest source is about 40 mi away.  aarrggghh 
If you ain't Wrenching ...  You ain't Livin.  So get out there and Live a little..  !!

Current Labors of LOVE;
1948 series 62 Club Coupe / 346 L head / Rendon Blue
1954 series 62 Sport Coupe / 331 V8 / Aztec Red
1970 Deville Rag Top / 472 V8 / Nottingham Green

Previous Caddies ;

1969 Fleetwood Eldorado / 472 V8 / Wisteria
1974 Sedan DeVille
1993 SLS / White Diamond
2006 CTS / White Diamond

64\/54Cadillacking

Quote from: Bill Kaufman CLC# 15225 on January 21, 2023, 11:46:09 AMThis explains the sudden problem with Carbon fouled plugs in my 54's 331 V8. I also had to advance the timing and upgrade to a Pertronix ignitor system that produces a hotter spark to correct the problem. When I had my Carb rebuilt I was told that the bad gas (ethanol) deposits were thick.. And I drive that car a lot. The car never sits over a period of a couple of days. The guy that rebuilt my Carter rebuilds carbs for a living. He is a true expert in his field. That is ALL he does in his shop. He told me that he has never seen anything like this before. The new fuel is silently destroying, rubber seals, engines, carbs etc... with no real help in sight unless you are fortunate enough to live close to a Non Ethanol source. My closest source is about 40 mi away.  aarrggghh 


The ethanol causes leaky carb syndrome. My Carter WCFB on my '54 was rebuilt a second time a little over a year ago or so and it seeps gas from the fuel bowel and gaskets already. I always suspect todays fuel is is simply not compatible with carburetors whatsoever, they just tolerate it. Even Jay Leno has spoken about this issue on his show before with the hundreds of cars he owns.

It's true as well that you need a hotter spark to ignite modern fuel properly with ethanol, I was told this by many old school mechanics that worked on classic cars.

My carb rebuilder did say to always drop a bottle in the tank of Marvel Mystery oil which helps counteract the drying effect of ethanol and will prevent the destruction of the gaskets. Plus it lubricants everything and keeps parts happy.

Starting up your Caddy every other day also helps prevent the fuel from oxidizing and causes more problems with the carb and engine.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Scott Nellis

   Unfortunately even when I purchase the supposedly ethanol-free top tier gas I inevitably get the previous pump user's lower grade gas that was left in the hose. The way around this would be to bring a jerry can and put the first gallon into it, then fill my Cadillac. This is all assuming that the "top tier" gas is actually ethanol-free. I remember reading in Hemming's Motor News many year's ago how to test gas for ethanol content. It was Jim Howe's column "Howe To" I believe. I forget how it was checked, but I would imagine a method could be found on the internet. If I ever get around to actually testing my local gas station gas I will post my findings on here for those that may be interested. If anyone else has actually done this I would love to hear about it.
1957 Eureka Hearse
1965 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Fleetwood Brougham
1970 Superior Hearse

jwwseville60

#10
Get a test tube with cork, folks.
Fill half with water, then gas.
Shake it. If its cloudy its ethanol.
A clean separation means no ethanol.

I found all Liberty Gas has ethanol in it. No one tests it but me.
The angry manager came out and told me to stop...what a huge red flag.
SCAM.

PURE GAS has no ethanol, but is 87 octane.
Use 114 octane leaded race gas (one or two gallons, and it has a lot of T-lead) in a full tank to bring the octane up for 10:1 Caddies. 1959-70. Then add Marvels.

This is the most cost-effective high octane non-ethanol solution Ive found, especially if you purchase 55 gallon drums of race fuel.

A pain, yes. But an excellent solution. The lead will preserve the gas for 2 years.
Remember...our gas tanks rust from ethanol. Marvels will help a lot for this dire situation.

Or use VP Race Fuel "Octanium." Costly, but it has real lead.
Not snake oil.

https://www.amazon.com/VP-Racing-Madditive-Octanium-Booster/dp/B01D38ZMVC/ref=asc_df_B01D38ZMVC?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80195746823006&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795273949376&psc=1
1960 Eldorado Seville, Copper, "IKE"
1961 CDV, gold, "Goldfinger"
1964 Eldorado, Turquoise, "Billy the Squid"
1963 De Ville Station Wagon Vista roof, silver blue, "Race Bannon"
1963 Fleetwood 60S, turquoise, "The Miami Special"
1959 Sedan Deville flat top, tan, "Jupiter-2"
1947 Caddy Sedanette 62, black, "Johnny Cash"
1970 ASC Fleetwood wagon, dark blue, "Iron Maiden"
Lifetime CLC

Scott Nellis

   Thanks for the information on how to test for ethanol in gas John. I will try that with my local service station gas when the weather is nicer in a few months. Right now where I live it is -15 degrees Celsius with a foot of snow.
1957 Eureka Hearse
1965 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Fleetwood Brougham
1970 Superior Hearse

64\/54Cadillacking

Quote from: jwwseville60 on January 31, 2023, 02:20:30 PMGet a test tube with cork, folks.
Fill half with water, then gas.
Shake it. If its cloudy its ethanol.
A clean separation means no ethanol.

I found all Liberty Gas has ethanol in it. No one tests it but me.
The angry manager came out and told me to stop...what a huge red flag.
SCAM.

PURE GAS has no ethanol, but is 87 octane.
Use 114 octane leaded race gas (one or two gallons, and it has a lot of T-lead) in a full tank to bring the octane up for 10:1 Caddies. 1959-70. Then add Marvels.

This is the most cost-effective high octane non-ethanol solution Ive found, especially if you purchase 55 gallon drums of race fuel.

A pain, yes. But an excellent solution. The lead will preserve the gas for 2 years.
Remember...our gas tanks rust from ethanol. Marvels will help a lot for this dire situation.

Or use VP Race Fuel "Octanium." Costly, but it has real lead.
Not snake oil.

https://www.amazon.com/VP-Racing-Madditive-Octanium-Booster/dp/B01D38ZMVC/ref=asc_df_B01D38ZMVC?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80195746823006&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583795273949376&psc=1



Thanks for the info! Out here in Cali, there is no ethanol free gas stations whatsoever which really sucks.
And not only that, but there used to be a VP racing fuel gas station locally, but they have shut down for almost 2 years now.

I used to get 110 octane full lead race gas for my 64 and it ran very smooth from what I remember. I love the lead smell from the exhaust.
It had a distinct scent including the color of gas which had a purple tint to it.

The "Octanium" seems like a true game changer for us Caddy owners up until 1970 MY. Having real lead in it really should make a difference in engine smoothness and idling. I'm going to have to try it out on both of my Cads.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

jwwseville60

Be advised that VP doesn't list the ingredients to Octanium, but a guy from VP told me it had lead in it over the phone. Its for off-road use only.

BTW, here in Virginia its been unseasonably warm with no salt on the roads for many weeks.
Everyone was out with their vintage car last weekend. So was I. Insane!
1960 Eldorado Seville, Copper, "IKE"
1961 CDV, gold, "Goldfinger"
1964 Eldorado, Turquoise, "Billy the Squid"
1963 De Ville Station Wagon Vista roof, silver blue, "Race Bannon"
1963 Fleetwood 60S, turquoise, "The Miami Special"
1959 Sedan Deville flat top, tan, "Jupiter-2"
1947 Caddy Sedanette 62, black, "Johnny Cash"
1970 ASC Fleetwood wagon, dark blue, "Iron Maiden"
Lifetime CLC

Cadillac Jack 82


I luckily have a Loves truck stop off of the I-10 here in Phoenix that has 100 and 110 octane race gas.  Works wonders in my 60s cars however the 55 CDV seems to be happy with regular pump 91 here.  So much so that I can chirp the tires in second gear on WOT.  Never thought I could do that with a 55 Cad.
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1959 Cadillac CDV "Shelley"
1964 Cadillac SDV "Rosalie"
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado "Sienna"

Past Cars

1937 LaSalle Cpe
1940 Chevrolet Cpe
1941 Ford 11Y
1954 Buick 48D
1955 Cadillac CDV
1955 Packard Clipper
1957 Cadillac Series 62
1962 VW Bug
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair
1967 Buick Wildcat Convertible
1968 Chevy Chevelle SS
1968 Plymouth Barracuda
1977 Lincoln MKV

badpoints

Quote from: jwwseville60 on January 31, 2023, 02:20:30 PMGet a test tube with cork, folks.
Fill half with water, then gas.
Shake it. If its cloudy its ethanol.
A clean separation means no ethanol.



If the gas has detergents it will cause an emulsion of water and fuel and look cloudy.

jwwseville60

1960 Eldorado Seville, Copper, "IKE"
1961 CDV, gold, "Goldfinger"
1964 Eldorado, Turquoise, "Billy the Squid"
1963 De Ville Station Wagon Vista roof, silver blue, "Race Bannon"
1963 Fleetwood 60S, turquoise, "The Miami Special"
1959 Sedan Deville flat top, tan, "Jupiter-2"
1947 Caddy Sedanette 62, black, "Johnny Cash"
1970 ASC Fleetwood wagon, dark blue, "Iron Maiden"
Lifetime CLC

badpoints

You could still be right. I am not sure if there would be enough detergents in the gas to make it cloudy.

Lexi

Will have to check this out. A couple of buddies told me that one of our local suppliers may have just ended their ethanol free high octane fuel. Hope not. Clay/Lexi

dinhnguyen57

Sheel 93 (V-Power 93) does not contain Ethanol, correct?
1941 Series 62 coupe
1959 Eldorado Seville
1990 Allante
2007 Mercedes S550
2009 STS
2018 Chrysler Pacifica