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1950 siezed engine

Started by K9sicem, February 27, 2023, 01:41:21 PM

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K9sicem

I bought a 1950 with a seized engine.  I have it soaking with oil to see if it can broken loose. How much value does the car lose if i put in a small block 350 instead of rebuilding the original motor?

James Landi

Scott, that's a great question that I can't answer... I've successfully "un seized" a number of engines over the years. Most have required a good deal of patience on my part.  FIlling the cylinders with Marvel oil or a mix of ATF and Liquid Wrench, working the crank shaft, back and forth,and getting even a fraction of an inch of movement means that you're on the right track. Gauging the amount of loss of penetrating fluid loss in each cylinder, and then, if you're not making progress, removing the heads and using "persuasion" on the pistons.   I've also known guys who removed the crank shaft and worked on each piston that way. Hope this helps,  James

V63

Well, at this point I would accept there is a need to pull both the heads. If the engine 'appears' salvageable, try and free it then get the heads serviced.

As to the engine modification there are buyers at each extreme however I like to keep the appearing original inside and out but under hood .... anything goes.

Jay Friedman

Depends to an extent on the body style.  In my opinion a modern engine lowers the car's value. 
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

Lexi

#4
Even if you get it loosened up, it may burn oil and need boring/sleeving of the cylinders and/or other related engine work. Be careful not to snap the lower crank bolt if that is how you are attempting to apply torque to free the engine. What you may want to consider is to buy a specific tool, if still available, to more safely apply torque in your attempt to free things up. I seem to recall seeing a hand tool that fits onto the ring gear teeth, which lock it in so you can apply more leverage where needed. Safer, and spares the crankshaft end bolt. I imagine the starter motor and dust cover would have to come off, at least with the later '50s Cads that I am familiar working on. Perhaps someone can chime in on this tool? Preferably remove or greatly loosen spark plugs so not fighting against compression. If it does start to move, then I think it would be OK to occassionally "bump" the ignition and use the starter motor to do the work. But just bumping the key, like when you engage the ignition to prevent an overheated engine from locking up. Like on for only a split second or less, Max, and only if you have determined that your other methods of freeing have indicated some movement. Comments? Clay/Lexi

P.S.  I like Jame's suggestion of what penetrants to use. I have also seen an old Caddy engine so seized that aside from rust everywhere on the inernals, the badly rusted main bearing journals on their own would have prevented engine cranking. It was that bad and a place the penetrant would not even reach unless your replaced all the crankcase oil with Marvel/ATF. In that event freeing that kind of engine up using those radical means is probably fruitless unless your goal is to dissassemble the engine for possible rebuild. Which is what I did. It was a brutal experience. So it all depends on how bad it is; i.e. what degree of fossilization it is in? LOL

Poncholover

The belly button engine engine would also require a different transmission.
I think the car would have greater appeal with a '60s or '70s Caddy engine.
Torgue is the appeal with the larger engines.
Flattie Caddy

49 Caddy

  Why not pull the engine and have it rebuilt.  Probably would be cheaper in the long run.  There are adapters that have to be purchased, and a different transmission if I am not mistaken.  I also bought a 49 Caddy with a seized motor and opted to re-build.  Up to you. As is known,  you never will get back close to what you invest.  It's an expensive hobby.

billyoung

Not trying to be negative but before I would just set off on replacing the original 331 Cu. In. V8 with a modern V8 I would pull the original engine and bring it to a machine shop for an estimate first of the cost of repairing it. replacing the engine will result in a different tranny and drive shaft then there is mounting the new engine in place and wiring it and sending fuel to it also a different radiator as well as converting from 6 volt to 12 volt and getting the new transmission to be able to function with the old speedometer etc. Perhaps rebuilding the original engine might be the least expensive and easiest way to go after all. I hope this helps.
Age 68, Living in Gods waiting room ( Florida ) Owned over 40 Old Cadillac's from 1955's to 1990 Brougham's. Currently own a 1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and a 1992 Cadillac 5.7 Brougham.

wheikkila

I ran the numbers when my 1940 LaSalle needed engine work. The new engine, transmission, driveshaft, radiator, mounts, cost to have welding done. exhaust work. The cost was in the $10,000 range. I'm sure their would be unseen expenses. The cost to overhaul my engine was $8000.00 all in. Will it increase the price? Depends on the engine exchange. If it looks like it could have been done from the factory. It might increase the price. If it looks like a hack job. You just lost a big chuck the value.
            Thanks Wayne           

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

All I can say is that nobody at a car show ever looked at an original engine, shook their heads, and walked away.
But, it's your car. You have to do you.
Jeff R
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Scott Nellis

   As has been mentioned, using some type of penetrant other than regular oil will give you a much better chance of success freeing-up your stuck engine. In the past I have used Sea-foam Deep Creep to get a seized engine freed-up. You already have the spark plugs out, just spray some in each cylinder every few days and keep trying to rotate the crank. Hopefully, eventually you will make some progress. Patience is important. Penetrants need time to work. I have also used diesel fuel successfully, but it has a distinct smell you may not love. Obviously loosen any belts running accessory items that may hinder your efforts.
   As far as repowering with a different engine, I agree with the consensus that rebuilding the original will be the most cost effective in the long run, not to mention keeping the natural beauty of that original Cadillac engine. Best of luck.
1957 Eureka Hearse
1965 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Miller-Meteor Hearse
1968 Fleetwood Brougham
1970 Superior Hearse

James Landi

Scott,

I've recently been entertained by a number of YouTubers who post videos about "getting ready for the scrap yard" car engines started.  I find them both somewhat informative and interesting. There's some "drama" as "the plot" has me speculating as to whether the long  neglected, abused rust bucket will "un seize," and then to what degree the internals have been so compromised that, yes, it runs, but that engine is truly toast, in spite of the effort. Recently, many videos feature Hurricane Ian salt water flooded cars. No surprises-- if the salt water immersion included salt water above the instrument panel, nothing manufactured with computer controls is going to run. But interestingly, flooded engines with salt water in the oil are usually ok, once the engines and transmissions are flushed.  I think you'll find these videos important, as the approach to getting engines unstuck is informative.  Please keep us in the loop-- and good luck, James

Moody

This is going to sound crazy, but I asked a machine shop what they use to free-up engines, they said plain water, because it's cheap and oil takes too long.
Moody

fishnjim

Next best thing, find a good used 331 and transplant it.  Then it's only a minor numbers matching fault.
 
I see it a wash in "value", but it's the cost to make it move on its own that's the real issue for U.   As it sits, it's at best a "2" car - aka project.
You'll have more $$ in the update and the car won't sell for any more, maybe less.   You can buy another one with a good motor in it for less, check the "book" value(CAAAC or Hagerty, etc.).  Otherwise, it's your desires and pocketbook that's determines what you do, not our opinions.  And what's available at the time comes into determining path forward.

I think you're wasting your time without pulling the heads and pan, for a "look see", unless you got a flex inspection camera and have a peer into the cylinders, etc.  Most likely when "froze/stuck" they had a gasket issue or coolant allowed to freeze and coolant/water got into the cylinders which hadn't seen lubrication for a long time and/or possibly cracked block/piston.  Rusts or forces them together.  If it sat with the hood off or was flooded, then the lower end would've seen water too.  So even if you "free" the stuckness, the damage is done and still present.  No miracles here.  You can replace the pistons, rods, bearings, and rings but the cast is not(economical), only a transplant.  If it's integrity is sound it can be rebored.  Resleeving might be possible, but what do you gain except rebuild expense? 

dn010

I've freed engines but not without pulling the heads as Jim stated. Of course I would start with oil in the cylinders, later I would take a length of 1X1 wood and slam it down on the cylinder that I'd ultimately find as the culprit, and between that, a breaker bar on the crank bolt, and engaging the starter, it breaks free slowly. Piston will begin to move up/down a very small amount, apply more oil, keep going back and forth until it moves more and more and finally can make a full rotation. But even if you get it free, I've never had one that I could simply just put back together and drive off into the sunset (not only that, every one always seemed to have a trashed transmission too!). You'll have either scored and pitted walls, broken rings, rings that are stuck in the piston and can't seal, or all three. You will get it to run like but you'll do more damage and it will not run well.

In the end, it is a waste of time and you end up pulling the engine anyway to fix the damage caused.

My suggestion is to pull it now and save yourself the aggravation.
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

TJ Hopland

With how cheap you can get a decent "bore scope" these days there really isn't a good excuse not to get one and peek in all the cylinders to see what may be sticking it. 

If you don't really see anything serious looking then keep working at it but at least for me back before those were cheap if it didn't un stick fairly easy they were usually pretty bad.  I had one, a Cad 500 that even with the heads off and crank out we still had to torch the piston out.  No way that was going to break loose and if it did that cylinder would have not done much. It was a stock engine and at 60 over it was still pitted so it ended up getting a sleeve.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

49 Caddy

50/50 mixture of acetone and transmission fluid has always worked for me.