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New Member Searching for Information

Started by Fleetwood60Special, May 29, 2023, 07:23:53 PM

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Fleetwood60Special

Just joined hoping to gain information on 57-58 Fleetwood Sixty Special.  I happened across one recently and fell in love with the style but I have not been able to find out much information on them.  Most searches don't result in much information regarding originality, options, value, what to look for in a purchase etc.. 

Are there any publications available, internet sources (outside of here) or any other information on this vintage.  I have to admit this car has me smitten but I don't know what I'm looking at or what it's worth.

Clewisiii

Do you have any photos you can share.  If your new here it takes a bit to figure out how to post pictures.  The 58 Fleetwood is one of my bucket list cars. 

The 60 special had a list of options that were standard so they fo not show up separately on the build sheets.  If you can take a picture of the cowl tag someone here can decode the details for you
"My interest is in the future, because I am going to spend the rest of my life there."  Charles Kettering

billyoung

Welcome, Yes, photo of Aluminum cowl tag and photos of the car and we will assist.
Age 68, Living in Gods waiting room ( Florida ) Owned over 40 Old Cadillac's from 1955's to 1990 Brougham's. Currently own a 1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and a 1992 Cadillac 5.7 Brougham.

Fleetwood60Special

I will put them up this evening. I don't have the tag but I will get it.

Fleetwood60Special

#4
I went back today and took several more pictures.  I think there may be an issue with the cowl tag in that I could not find one.  I thought the location was on the drivers side on the flat spot on top of the cover that the brake master cylinder attaches to.  In this location there was an 8 digit alphanumeric code starting with a 14.  It was black and not riveted in place.  It appeared to be attached (glued or something similar) where the cowl plate should be.  I will post a picture this evening.  I could not find evidence of a cowl tag anywhere else. 

Overall I would say it's in fair condition.  The chrome is generally pitted but not severely.  It's fine for a driver.  There are a few rust spots at the hood and trunk edges.  The big concern is the cowl tag.  If I missed it tell me where it should be.  I posted the picture of what I found in the area where I believe the cowl should be.  Without it I don't know how I could tell anything.  The car runs but has been sitting.  Any input on what I may be getting myself into and approximate value would be a great help. 

dn010

Hard to put a value with limited photos. Did you get underneath it? - How do the floors and frame look? Is it drivable?
-----Dan Benedek
'57 Cadillac Sedan Deville 6239DX
'81 DMC DeLorean

Fleetwood60Special

Quote from: dn010 on June 01, 2023, 11:10:39 AMHard to put a value with limited photos. Did you get underneath it? - How do the floors and frame look? Is it drivable?

I was under it briefly but only in the front.  The front frame and suspension appears to be in good shape but I didn't get to the floor pans.  Once I couldn't find a cowl tag I stopped looking at the other parts.

David King (kz78hy)

That tag looks like a state issued VIN of some kind.

I wonder if this had a salvage title at some point in its life?
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Fleetwood60Special

Quote from: David King  (kz78hy) on June 02, 2023, 01:07:23 PMThat tag looks like a state issued VIN of some kind.

I wonder if this had a salvage title at some point in its life?

That was my thought as well. 

billyoung

The aluminum body tag would be under the hood on the drivers side of the top of the firewall and secured with two flush concave rivets. The car overall looks to be quite nice.
Age 68, Living in Gods waiting room ( Florida ) Owned over 40 Old Cadillac's from 1955's to 1990 Brougham's. Currently own a 1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and a 1992 Cadillac 5.7 Brougham.

Fleetwood60Special

Quote from: billyoung on June 02, 2023, 08:26:12 PMThe aluminum body tag would be under the hood on the drivers side of the top of the firewall and secured with two flush concave rivets. The car overall looks to be quite nice.

That's the location of the black tag picture I posted.  I assumed, as noted by another member above, that it may be a salvage issued vin or any other multiple reasons to have a state issued vin.  According to the owner, it came from Canada that way many years ago.

The paint in nice due to a repaint when it was brought over and has been garage kept.  The rest of it is in fair condition from what I can tell.  There are some areas of rust that I am concerned about but I really need to take a much closer look.  I suspect there are no huge rust problems but I can't say for sure.

The vin is what concerns me the most.  I don't want to quickly get in too deep (which I normally do with old cars) and never be able to get out.

How much does the missing vin devalue the car?  I know it's the kiss of death in the Corvette market unless it's going to be a resto-mod.

Michael Petti

The original VIN appears in multiple places on the car other than the tag. My 60 has it stamped on the left frame rail behind the radiator facing up. It also is stamped on the driver's side of the engine and on the frame on the driver's side about 2/3rds back roughly under the back seat. The 58 may be the same. Someone on here can probably tell us that.

Fleetwood60Special

Quote from: Michael Petti on June 03, 2023, 06:42:35 AMThe original VIN appears in multiple places on the car other than the tag. My 60 has it stamped on the left frame rail behind the radiator facing up. It also is stamped on the driver's side of the engine and on the frame on the driver's side about 2/3rds back roughly under the back seat. The 58 may be the same. Someone on here can probably tell us that.

I read that it was in several places but have not checked.  For me the bigger issues is how to tell what the original colors etc.. were.  Is there another way to tell without the tag?

Clewisiii

Yes the aluminum missing tag does not actually include the vin number.  It just shows trim options and build date details. 
"My interest is in the future, because I am going to spend the rest of my life there."  Charles Kettering

David King (kz78hy)

#14
The VIN will be on the RH front frame corner and the RH front of the engine block (there is shelf on the casting)  The A/C compressor blocks the viewing angle.

The VIN coding system changed in '58 and started using letters for the model numbers, your VIN will start with 58M.
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Hi, Does the seller have a valid title for the car? If not, no matter how much you want the car, I'd forget about it. I purchased a mint 1991 Seville that the seller had no right to sell. It was in a family disputed estate that took me six months to straighten out and finally get the title. 

If my lawyer had not been classmates with the estate's lawyer, I might still be having problems.

If the asking price is over four figures, that is a LOT of $$$ to risk not being able to register the car in your name. I would ask the seller to show it to you, and then show where the #s used on it are located on the car, (if it doesn't have a regular Cadillac SN.)

Good luck. It is a nice looking auto.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Fleetwood60Special

Quote from: Barry M Wheeler #2189 on June 03, 2023, 10:35:21 PMHi, Does the seller have a valid title for the car? If not, no matter how much you want the car, I'd forget about it. I purchased a mint 1991 Seville that the seller had no right to sell. It was in a family disputed estate that took me six months to straighten out and finally get the title. 

If my lawyer had not been classmates with the estate's lawyer, I might still be having problems.

If the asking price is over four figures, that is a LOT of $$$ to risk not being able to register the car in your name. I would ask the seller to show it to you, and then show where the #s used on it are located on the car, (if it doesn't have a regular Cadillac SN.)

Good luck. It is a nice looking auto.

I have not seen the title but was told it was valid and had been transferred from the estate and was the same number on the tag in the picture I posted.  The price is over 4 figures and that's where I'm stumbling.  They are looking for around $40K for the car.  It seems like a lot for a car without a cowl tag.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

#17
No disrespect intended, but unless what they are asking is "pocket change" to you, this car has way, way too many if's, ands, but's and whatevers. For one thing, even if I personally had the money to spare, it is vastly overpriced from what I can see.  There are too many cars out there to buy something that's questionable in so many ways.

I'm sure there are many members owning such a car in this kind of shape, that if you started waving forty grand in front of them, they might consider throwing in their wife and first born as part of the deal. Pardon my sarcasm, but please, for a car that has even minor defects, I think that the car is extremely overpriced. You mentioned other areas that are in "fair" condition, pitted chrome and some rust spots. In my opinion, a forty grand car of this vintage should be approaching excellent in all respects.

If nothing else, tomorrow, call Hagerty Insurance, tell them everything you've told us, and see if they'd insure the car for that amount given the questionable lineage and condition. I'd also check with your local DMV to see whether your state (if it's different from the seller's) would give you a title. I sold a collector car that I couldn't find the SN, and the buyer's state would not accept the "Mickey Mouse #s" the state trooper said I could put down in my own state when I was titling it."

I am not an "expert" in these matters, just telling you what I'd do if I had the means to buy the car myself. Again, kindest regards, and best of luck.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Michael Petti

Just my opinion but that car is not worth 40K. Check Hagarty valuation tool.
From your pictures it looks like a number 3 at best. Additionally, as Barry said the title situation only makes it worse.

Fleetwood60Special

No offense taken here.  You all are telling me exactly what I asked to know.  Based on what little information I could glean from the net (including Hagerty evaluation tools) I assumed it was worth $25K tops before I found the cowl tag issue.  Now with the issues I'm reasonably sure it's worth much less.

I appreciate everyone's take on it.