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3d printing basics and what sorts of Cadillac parts are possible

Started by TJ Hopland, April 09, 2020, 01:12:55 PM

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Cadman-iac

TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious,  i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

MaR


MaR

Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 10, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious,  i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick
There are two different processed used to 3D print metal. One uses a resin binder to hold the metal particles in place and then the part is vacuum sintered and a filler metal is introduced to take the place of the resin. The other process melts the metal powder directly with a laser and the part is completed in the printer with no secondary operations needed.

TJ Hopland

Quote from: Cadman-iac on April 10, 2020, 10:35:03 AM
TJ,
You mentioned centered metal, are you referring to the word "sintered" metal? Just curious,  i know that the old bronze fuel filter was made of sintered bronze.
Rick

I do believe you are correct.  When I first typed it as centered that didn't look correct so I did a quick search and got a lot of hits for centered metals but now that I look closer at that that term appears to have to do with the internal make up of metals and not the process of making solids by heating a powder which is sintering.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

35-709

Quote from: MaR on April 10, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Those are not the same thing.
OK, sorry, do you have a picture of what is the same thing?
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

MaR

Quote from: 35-709 on April 10, 2020, 01:18:03 PM
OK, sorry, do you have a picture of what is the same thing?
What I posted is correct part.

35-709

Ah yes, have not seen that type without the little arm that snaps in place to hold the wires from coming out.  Thank you.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

MaR

Quote from: 35-709 on April 10, 2020, 01:51:06 PM
Ah yes, have not seen that type without the little arm that snaps in place to hold the wires from coming out.  Thank you.
The funny thing about it, there is a left and a right one but the only difference is the notch on the back side.


TJ Hopland

Adapters like the wrong year mirror thing is also a great application.   May be a lot of things similar where there was a one year or part year item that is really similar to a many year one.   That could really help a lot of people that just want something that is mostly correct and functional. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

thoralt

I had to replace the small vacuum manifold which sits on my 1968 DeVille's firewall. One of the pins broke off and I was not able to get one using the usual suspects (even if, it would have cost ~$100). Since this one also contains a check valve, I was not able to create a single working replacement part, but they sell small vacuum check valves for less than $10 which do the job. My first prototype was made out of PLA which is of course not stable enough so I ordered some of this filament: https://3dk.berlin/en/3dktop-heat-resistent/195-3dktop-black.html - it should withstand temperatures of 230 °C (450 °F) after curing it in the oven. The filament just arrived, I will test it the next days.

I also support Highwayman68's proposal to somehow make the designs available to anyone who needs them. A thread like this one for a quick summary would be nice and we could place the files and a more detailed description on a site like https://www.thingiverse.com. Would anybody like to join?
1968 DeVille Convertible, located in Germany

67_Eldo

Quote from: thoralt on April 14, 2020, 07:10:28 AM
... I ordered some of this filament: https://3dk.berlin/en/3dktop-heat-resistent/195-3dktop-black.html - it should withstand temperatures of 230 °C (450 °F) after curing it in the oven.
That filament looks interesting. I'd try it except my old, cheap 3D printer shuts itself off when the printer-head temperature goes past 255 °C. Time to get a new printer!

TJ Hopland

Interesting filament.  I was wondering if what we usually think of as metal process like tempering and hardening would work on plastic and it looks like the answer is yes.    260*C has to be right on the edge for a lot of hot end designs.  Isn't the PTFE tubing break down right about there?   Considering some PLA's are only 180 and the high end for them is 225 25-30 headroom seems like a reasonable design. 

For those following along some more basics....   

The printer components we are talking about here is the extruder and hot end.   The hot end is literally that.  Its a hollow chunk of something that contains the heating element and has the nozzle attached to it.  Its darn near identical to a hot glue gun except the scale is a little different.   Overall concept is pretty much identical on al the designs but the precision and ability to maintain a temp at different feed rates does vary as well as methods of containing the heat where its needed so you are not melting material anywhere other than right before the nozzle.  If you think about that that is easier said than done.  You want the material fully melted in the nozzle but a few MM away you want it to still be solid.  You also don't want any part of the machine to melt. 

The extruder is the part that feeds the filament into the hot end which supplies the material and the pressure to squirt it out of the nozzle.   Again think of the hot glue gun but instead of a trigger lever action its a computer controlled motor with sharp gear on it that has the filament clamped against it so when it turns it feeds filament.  The most common and least expensive way to make all this work is something called a Bowden design which is were the exruder mechanism isn't mounted directly to the hot end.   It can me mounted almost anywhere on the machine because there is basically a hose between it and the hot end so its flexible. 

Advantages is its cheap and easy to implement.  Also reduces the number of wires and mass at the moving hot end which you are trying to precisely control.  More mass means more inertia so everything needs to be stronger to keep things precise especially as the scale increases.   Disadvantage is since the extruder pushing the filament is what makes it 'squirt' you loose some precision in that aspect because the fit and flex of the filament and the tube over the length of the tube isn't perfect or consistent.   Think of the hot glue gun or a caulking gun.  There is a delay from when you apply the pressure till when the product comes out.   Also think what happens when you release the trigger and in most caulk guns hit that extra release to retract the plunger a bit.  There is a delay before the stuff quits coming out.  In printing this is also called retraction where the extruder reverses to quickly release the pressure and hopefully quit the stuff coming out.   

There are printer designs where the extruder is part of the hot end and it has its advantages as far as better control of the filament but the disadvantages I mentioned above making it a more complex and larger mass you are trying to precisely control.  On a proper design (not most conversions) a direct drive gets rid of that hose/tube which becomes a real weak point when you are trying to maintain high temps like the material linked above. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

67_Eldo

Quote from: TJ Hopland on April 14, 2020, 12:19:10 PM260*C has to be right on the edge for a lot of hot end designs.  Isn't the PTFE tubing break down right about there?
You should keep PTFE temps down below 240°C to be sure you're OK. That means that ABS printing isn't a good idea with a PTFE head.

39Flathead

Sorry for bumping an "old" thread but thought I'd jump in.

I'm the lead additive engineer for a $7b medical engineering company. I can print damn near anything in pretty much any material. I've got a full spool of 17-4 stainless filament sitting here as well that I plan to run on some Cadillac parts.

If I can help out with anything from CAD design to prototyping to full printing of any challenging parts just let me know.

Just did a full run of Titanium printed parts too.

39Flathead

Quote from: MaR on April 10, 2020, 12:00:53 PM
There are two different processed used to 3D print metal. One uses a resin binder to hold the metal particles in place and then the part is vacuum sintered and a filler metal is introduced to take the place of the resin. The other process melts the metal powder directly with a laser and the part is completed in the printer with no secondary operations needed.

Not entirely accurate. Running metal through an FDM machine does require a filament with metal powder in a binding matrix but the part is just washed and sintered normally, burning out the binder and leaving only metal. No filler metal needs to be added. The finish is quite smooth but at the same time you're limited by the accuracy and design limitations of an FDM. This printer you can pickup for $200k give or take. The tricky part (and the reason you can't just run a metal filament through any FDM) is that sintering the part scales it down a unique amount based on the metal being used and the part geometry. I can run the same filament through a $150 printer and a $200,000 printer...both will print a metal part...but one will have useless tolerances and no dimensional accuracy and the other will be within 100 micron. Scale factors are key here.


Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) is the highest end metal printing. We just quoted out a 4 laser system at $2.25M for our facility. These parts are solid, not honeycomb as you'd usually find on any FDM driven process, and are of higher accuracy (can hold +/-0.002") BUT the part comes out in a very cast appearance. These parts would then go in for post-processing to arrive at the surface finish or tolerances required. This is what you'd use for rocket engines/advanced aero/medical/etc. Last year I was offered a job as lead additive engineer for a certain rocket engine company in Socal that uses the exact machine we're talking about: Inconel rocket engines.


MaR

Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 10:21:05 AM
Sorry for bumping an "old" thread but thought I'd jump in.

I'm the lead additive engineer for a $7b medical engineering company. I can print damn near anything in pretty much any material. I've got a full spool of 17-4 stainless filament sitting here as well that I plan to run on some Cadillac parts.

If I can help out with anything from CAD design to prototyping to full printing of any challenging parts just let me know.

Just did a full run of Titanium printed parts too.
What is the limits of your print bed for something like nylon or ABS? Can you print something 29" long?

39Flathead

Quote from: MaR on May 21, 2020, 10:54:14 AM
What is the limits of your print bed for something like nylon or ABS? Can you print something 29" long?

I don't do much work with FDM printers as they aren't really a production tool. I do run 4 FDM printers that run Nylon with full carbon fiber strand, finished product is approximately as strong as Al 6061.

For something 29" long I would either use a large format FDM (should be getting one next month that is 4'x4x4') or I would use a big HP 5200 series and let the software determine how to dowel pin larger pieces together. This is the printer and joining style used by several top private jet companies as the parts are supportless, highest repeatibility, incredibly fast, and takes a nickel coating well that makes it indistinguishable from chrome metal at a tiny fraction of the weight. Also UV resistance and water/airtight.

The equipment we run most commonly is:

FDM: Nylon with solid carbon fiber or kevlar reinforcement, 6061 Al replacement. 12x6x5"
MJF: Nylon PA 12 with no support required. 15x15x11" extremely fast and accurate
SLA: resins from heat resistant (2000F+ max, but I typically use the 550F max plastic for radiator adaptors) to 40A silicones to ABS replicas to polypropylene etc. MUCH better resolution than FDM. 7x7x8"
Atomic Diffusion Metal: 12x12x8", think we have 17-4 PH running now but I think tool steel and maybe Ti are floating around too.
DMLS: 25x20x20" currently only running Ti64 although I have some Al parts from it too.

MaR

Quote from: 39Flathead on May 21, 2020, 11:01:02 AM
I don't do much work with FDM printers as they aren't really a production tool. I do run 4 FDM printers that run Nylon with full carbon fiber strand, finished product is approximately as strong as Al 6061.

For something 29" long I would either use a large format FDM (should be getting one next month that is 4'x4x4') or I would use a big HP 5200 series and let the software determine how to dowel pin larger pieces together. This is the printer and joining style used by several top private jet companies as the parts are supportless, highest repeatibility, incredibly fast, and takes a nickel coating well that makes it indistinguishable from chrome metal at a tiny fraction of the weight. Also UV resistance and water/airtight.
I usually have my "production parts" printed by Shapeways on an EOS P 770 SLS printer but this particular part is just a bit too big to do it in one piece.

TJ Hopland

Maybe we are not far from having a mobile service like they now do for rain gutters.   You long into a site like Rock Auto and instead of them shipping you a part a truck shows up in front of your house and spits out the parts?   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

39Flathead

Quote from: MaR on May 21, 2020, 11:06:37 AM
I usually have my "production parts" printed by Shapeways on an EOS P 770 SLS printer but this particular part is just a bit too big to do it in one piece.

Yup we're currently exploring the EOS M400-4.

We've printed 60"x24"x24" prints on our HP. We have an additional $20,000 software license to break down larger parts in optimal paths.