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Known fix for 1976 Seville EGR vacuum control solenoid - Charles Hargrove

Started by 79 Eldorado, April 18, 2022, 01:52:01 PM

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79 Eldorado

All,
Charles Hargrove reached out to me. He asked for some advice on his 1976 Seville. He is a forum member but he hasn't mastered uploading photos yet so when I suggested that he post a topic on the forum he asked me if I could help him.

He was initially looking for a replacement but I'm certain I've read other threads here were people have mentioned an EGR control fix. I thought maybe they even called it the Mazda fix but I've never read a thread where someone explained what the fix is. Since I thought it referenced Mazda I tried a google search and I did see a Mazda-Ford part which has vacuum connections very similar to the photo Charles sent me (attached). I was wondering if indeed the fix I've seen referenced is for this part.

Second, if there is no fix, in looking at the photo I mentioned to Charles it could be that something is sticking and preventing the solenoid from diverting/closing what it's intended to. I do think I could create a replacement plastic bottom pretty easily. I'm sure I could duplicate the bracket and I was wondering if there might be a replacement for the solenoid itself. I wouldn't bother doing any of that though if there's a known fix.

I'm not even certain how common across these systems this specific PN is. I know there was a change to the interaction of the EGR with the system between I think 76 and 77.

If someone could share a link to a thread where the fix was already described it would help. Charles also planned to reply to the thread as he has direct knowledge regarding what the issue is.

Scott

bcroe

If you go to my PHOTOBUCKET and click the first album, a sub
album EGR REPAIR comes up. Waldo dU Toit did this article in
THE SELF STARTER about Feb 2012. 

https://app.photobucket.com/u/bcroe

   click on an Album
   click on a picture to enlarge + description

That is an Olds engine, and it is possible to move an Olds carb
EGR system to the Cad, basically a hose from ported vacuum
to a standard EGR, a valve in the middle found on every OLDS. 

BRUCE ROE

79 Eldorado

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the reply. After looking at your PB it looks like it was a Nissan part which I recall people referring to. I had both Nissan and Mazda in my head but when I saw a photo of a Mazda part, solenoid though not the transducer, which looked nearly the same as the part Chares sent I assumed maybe it was the Mazda-Ford part.

I navigated to your PB long ago when you first referenced it. The PB format has been updated; some for the good and I think some for the worse. Previously I recall some of the text was cut-off and the format was really difficult to work with. So, as I recall, I copied some of your EFI articles to MS-Word and I added the photos using the snip tool. That made them easier to follow. I remember it was a lot of effort but I don't recall exactly why. I think probably the truncated text but it was a feature of the PB format which caused it (to be clear not at all a criticism of what you did as I enjoyed everything I saw). Now it looks like nothing obstructs/interferes with the text but it's a very narrow column. I wanted to copy the text so I could ask questions, for clarity, based on what I read but something in PB is preventing me from copying the text. It's like it's an image of text and not actual text which can be copied to edit. I'm simply trying to help Charles so cutting and re-typing everything is a bit much.

I'll take another look when it's not so late. When I saw the image Charles sent it made me think the inside of the plastic part might be dirty inside and it may be preventing the solenoid from shutting off flow. If the solenoid extends a pin and there's anything in the sealing area the pin may not be able to close the flow. That's what made me think possibly cleaning the plastic part or replacing the plastic part may solve the problem. I know solenoids can go bad but it seems like they are pretty reliable. If we simply need a replacement plastic part I think I could model one the original if I had an extra, even failed, part.

I didn't see any added photos of the EGR solenoid part, which Charles sent, on you PB. Where's the electrical connection if the ECU is activating it? I need to look at my car I guess and see if our cars have exactly the same part.

Edit: Here's the PN of the Mazda-Ford part I was referring to: K5T43191 EGR vacuum solenoid
Edit 2: If the solenoid is ECU controlled what is the solenoid control voltage?


Scott


79 Eldorado

Bruce,
I found the PN from your photo bucket. I thought it would be good to post it here. Even after seeing your page I couldn't find the PN in the Rockauto search so I searched EGR transducer and "VS137" came-up. I found it both on Rock and in Amazon.

Here's the description on Amazon:
"Standard Motor Products VS137 EGR Valve Vacuum Solenoid"

In the Rockauto description they mention alternate/OEM Part Number(s): 1474110W00, 1474180W00

Maybe that will help someone else. Thanks for posting it on your photo bucket.

Scott

bcroe

I may be somewhat confused, or causing confusion.  From
the throttle body ported vacuum, a hose goes to the EGR
SOLENOID, controlled by a 12V signal from the ECU. Not
all EFI cars have the EGR SOLENOID I think it tends to
California, mine did not. 

The hose then continues to the EXHAUST PRESSURE
TRANSDUCER, nothing electrical.  My PHOTOBUCKET
was rebuilding this, which always seems to be bad. 
Is this replaced by the VS137 you mentioned? 

The above was mounted as a spacer under the actual
EGR VALVE. 

My own car has the simple Olds carb type control. 
Have been searching for that plastic valve, mine all
from Oldsmobiles.  Bruce Roe

79 Eldorado

Bruce,
When I originally read the past posts on the Nissan transducer, months or even over a year ago, I never saw any of the photos. I knew I had the transducer which looks like a vacuum pod but when Charles asked me to post the question I wasn't certain if that solenoid he needed may have been what I was remembering as the Nissan fix (what I thought may have been Mazda).

Anyway I followed-up on the thread because I'm finally starting to do the timing chain and swap over to the cast iron intake you sent me. I replied because you mentioned your photo bucket page which had the vacuum pod or I guess vacuum transducer. I have no signs mine is bad but as fragile as the design seems to be I wanted to be prepared for the worst. I did try to search by the PN markings you found on yours but when it still wasn't easy to find I thought I should post some additional details for others.

I never heard back from Charles to know if he solved the issue he was having. He essentially identified the part which he thought was bad and I told him he should start a thread so others could benefit and because at the time I wasn't certain which part in the EGR circuit had the known fix...

Scott

Jaks79Britz

Scott - did you end up changing your timing chain sprockets?   If so, wondering how it went and if it was a task that you DIY.   I think that's the next item to tackle on my 79 since the timing seems to be getting thrown off.
79 Eldorado Biarritz
79 Coupe Deville

Dave Shepherd

You can chain  looseness by watching the dist rotor movement as you manually  turn the engine back and forth using the crank bolt, you will feel slack in the chain as you change directions, and the rotor movement lags behind.

bcroe

Quote from: Dave Shepherd on July 01, 2022, 08:12:26 PMYou can chain  looseness by watching the dist rotor movement as you manually  turn the engine back and forth using the crank bolt, you will feel slack in the chain as you change directions, and the rotor movement lags behind.

Use the timing mark, or your own, check how many
degrees the crank moves before the HEI follows it. 
My rule of thumb.  2 degrees is tolerable, 6 degrees
means replace that chain NOW.  Had a note from
Europe about a 79 E no one could get to run, I
advised check chain slack.  It was 12 degrees, he
changed it and the car ran again.  Bruce Roe

79 Eldorado

Mine is in the process of being done. It would be done except the double roller timing chains Rockauto lists for the 1979 Eldorado are SBC (small block chevy) chains and not Oldsmobile. I never noticed and Rockauto normally has the correct PNs listed. The worst part was I got burned twice. I intended to do the job a year ago and there was one part I couldn't find on Rockauto and so I bought everything on Summit Racing. I finally remembered I had taken the timing chain PN from Rockauto. I didn't remember doing that until I bought a second wrong PN directly from Rock.

I've had Olds front covers off before and the biggest issue can be installing the cover with a new lower seal. A friend who is also an Olds person is working with me on this and he mentioned the trick is to use the old seal which is already compressed.

One other thing to be aware of is the motor mount brackets wrap around the front cover so you need to support the engine while you're doing the job. I had a board which covered almost the entire lower portion of the oil pan so that's how mine is being supported.

My harmonic balancer was worn badly where the seal in the front cover goes over it. Once everything was removed it was obvious there was an oil leak there so I ordered a new balancer as well.

The nylon covered timing gear has some teeth tips missing and the chain was pretty sloppy so it was due for a change.

While you have the cover off remember to check the right side (passenger side) oil passage plug. There's a hole in the middle which oils the timing chain. I used a small diameter wire to make certain it was clear.

Scott


20220605_154148.jpg
20220605_153956.jpg 

The Tassie Devil(le)

Scott,

You were lucky to find yours before total destruction, like how I found mine.

Surprisingly enough, my engine was still running very nicely.   Not sure how long it was like this, but it must have been before I purchased it in 2007, as I think I would have felt it going as it was destroying itself.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

bcroe

Yes no matter how many pictures we post of those poorly
performing time bombs, owners keep driving them.  I hope
Rock got their info fixed, usually pretty good.  I never
had a wrong part issue, as I have been changing out the
chain set for decades on each new (to me) Olds, parts
on hand. 

Changing the set on a front driver with EFI is about the
worst case, but a couple tools I keep really help.  No
more putting on a friction fit 79 harmonic balancer with
a big hammer.  Aware of the balancer weight slipping for
a long time, after a couple of them came apart I replaced
all of them with FluidDampers that can never come apart. 

79 Eldorado

Mine too was running quite well. I wasn't sure what I would find; meaning whether or not someone else had already changed it before I got it... I guess not.

I thought about the fluid damper. I've never had a problem which I could perceive with a stock style. I should probably take a photo of the damper snout though. I've heard people talk about potential issues with Fluid Dampers but I don't know if there was any actual history backing what I read (don't even recall what the failure mode was and not certain I could find it again).

Rock has the proper PNs for the 1979 Toronado so I finally just changed vehicles to get the proper listing. I really hate the Rock return questions. They direct you to what they think the issue is and they don't have a place for comments; probably wouldn't read them anyway. They asked me:
-1) Was the PN you purchased on the box "Yes"
-2) Was there a PN on the part inside the box "Yes" (Technically though it was the manufacturer's ID for one of the gears but yes it is a sort of "PN" and of course it didn't match the PN on the box even though I'm certain the set in the box was in fact the part the box was intended to contain.
-3) Does the PN on the part match the number on the box? "No"

That's totally misleading but my answers were honest. I wrote them a note and placed it in the box. I told them their listing was wrong and they need to compare the listing to the 1979 Toronado. I told them the chain listed was for SBC and Cadillac did not offer the SBC in the 1979 Eldorado. The standard chains for the Eldorado are correct; the "special" chains like the double rollers were the ones listed incorrectly.

It could have been worse. If the PN in the box had matched Rock would assume that I got a proper PN and I was wrong because their questions do not consider an improper listing.

Scott

bcroe

I have been running the FluiDampers for a lot of years
and a lot of miles.  One problem was on the 79 Toro/Eldo,
their counterweight did not quite clear the front engine
mount.  A minor mod to the support fixed that. 

Perhaps a more serious problem was the shaft fit.  Earlier
years just slid on, but the 79 is a friction fit, 1/2 mil
undersize and requiring that tool I showed to pull it into
place.  The FluiDamper came 1  1/2 mil undersize, quite
difficult to get on.  This was caused by a pretty anodizing
layer.  After filling the keyway, I used a ball hone to
remove the inside anodizing, and it was now perfect. 
Bruce Roe

Jaks79Britz

Thank you for the info on the the timing chain/sprockets change.   I'll certainly check out the slack test Bruce mentions.   Although, that timing slip may not be my issue after all on my 79 Biarritz. 

I found out this weekend that my distributor is not giving enough spark.  I say this here because of RockAuto's inconstant part info.  I purchased a rebuilt "ACDELCO" distributor about 2-3 months ago, so I wasn't looking at that when my car wouldn't start.  I finally did, and found out that these rebuilt's don't use ACDELCO components in the rebuilt (control module, condenser/capacitor and speed sensor).  I had to find NOS GM control modules on eBay to replace the aftermarket part.  Just a heads up to anyone thinking they're getting a full ACDELCO rebuild.
79 Eldorado Biarritz
79 Coupe Deville

79 Eldorado

I've had others warn me about aftermarket ignition modules... That ends-up equally as scary as it is helpful. I know AC-Delco doesn't manufacture anything themselves; they just package/brand parts from other suppliers. I had an issue with a parking brake cable on one car and so I finally bought all three brands Rock had and it really looked like they were all made by the same factory. Obviously NOS will hopefully be the original manufacturer but those are not always easy to find.

If it was a re-man distributor I guess it came with the module already installed. The only other thing I can think of is forgetting the thermal paste under the module. That can damage a module in a short amount of time.

Scott