57 brake condition question

[dn010]

I'm getting around to looking at my brakes today and changing out the rubber lines. Does the photos below mean my brakes have been burning? Too much dust in the drum? Also it seems the right side shoe is thinner than the left, is this supposed to be? I don't recall seeing my brakes in this condition before but I also haven't looked at them in ~13 years.

[TJ Hopland]

Is the photo the left side of the car?   Short shoe faces forward.   If they are reversed perhaps that could cause the uneven wear?   Also make sure there are not grooves worn into the backing plates so the shoes can properly float as needed.  I have also seen some cases were one side of the wheel cylinder was sized up cause strange issues.

[dn010]

Photo is of the driver front wheel. After posting this, I went in the car and pressed on the brake pedal - only the left side shoe expanded outward. So I proceeded to take everything apart and you called it - the right side of the wheel cylinder was seized. So now I have the cylinder apart and I am rebuilding it. I have three sets of shoes that I've accumulated but at this point, I think it best to order new. I can't wait to dig into the other three wheels and see what mysteries are left to uncover.

[dn010]

After looking at all my spare shoes and then looking at the shop manual, I see what you mean by saying the "short shoe" faces forward- it seems my lining length on both of these shoes are the same and thus, incorrect. Not sure how this has happened but it's just another reason to get new, "correct" shoes - shoe shopping is definitely in order later after I take apart the passenger front.

[35-709]

Maybe you'll find 2 short ones on the right side.   

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Looking at the base of the material on the shoes it looks like there is a poor bonding to the actual shoe.

The friction material should have no gaps where it meets the shoes.

The reason the front shoe is shorter is because it is there to mainly assist the braking pressure by transferring the binding pressure to the largest material on the rear shoe as this shoe in held in position by the upper anchor point.  The front shoe friction material doesn't need to be as long, thereby saving material during building, meaning saving cost.

Bruce.

[Daryl Chesterman]

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, it looks like there are the remnants of rivets in some of the holes in those brake shoes.  Looking at your center picture, and magnifying it, it looks like there is still some of the rivet left in some of the holes, especially on the left shoe, and it looks like I can see brass color in the top hole of the right shoe.  If so, that was a really shoddy job of prepping the shoes before bonding the linings.  Like Bruce said, there should be no gap between the shoe friction material and the metal of the shoe.  They definitely need to be replaced!

Daryl Chesterman

[TJ Hopland]

I thought I had seen in the pics that one shoe the material was shorter but looking again I'm not sure what made me think that other than maybe the angle of the photo.

The metal part is usually the same for the 2 shoes its just the lining is shorter on one so its entirely possible that someone put the wrong ones in the wrong places. 

[fishnjim]

Brakes without self adjusters should be inspected and adjusted/serviced annually.  Regular service prevents the large rebuild costs and safety issues of neglecting regular maintenance.   Car probably sits a lot and hasn't been kept up based on the cob webs.   We're used to the modern cars where we don't have to do much.   In the day, much like pharmacies now, most corners, and small towns had a service garage or two attached to a gas station and was easily attended to.   Those daze are gone with the fuel only mega stations.   Things like mufflers, bias tires, front end align, shocks, carbs, etc didn't last as long/required regular work.   They switched to parts replacing over repair and found out they can charge more money for "big" jobs, so the regular stuff doesn't get done today.   Hence the rise of auto service insurance for the risk adverse populace.
The brake fluid/system should be flushed as it's probably gelled by now.   DOT 3/4 fluid should be changed when it starts to discolor or on a schedule of miles or years.  Usually, just by bleeding regularly it gets refreshed.   It can pick up moisture and corrode the steel parts.   Hoses can probably go >ten years without replacement, depending on the type/era, so your work is long over due.  We used to issue "Round tu it"s for this.

[dn010]

Thank you all for your replies. I didn't even notice the gaps in the shoes until mentioned so thank you. Today I am ordering all new shoes and wheel cylinder kits.

Is it preferred to get riveted linings over bonded? Does it matter? Should I hang onto these old shoes I have or is there enough stock I can chuck them?

Between lack of time over the last decade and more recently prepping for paint that has taken nearly two years, as Jim could tell - the car has sat for quite some time with only basic "yard" movement/braking. Now, the paint is done, the trim is mostly put back on the car, and aside from the interior which I am not in a rush for, the brake system is the last thing that needs to be gone through on this car before I can get it on the road and drive it regularly. I already have all new rubber brake hoses, the brake booster has been rebuilt, now it's just down to the wheels which I didn't realize were so bad. As far as I know, the last person to have gone through them never did any sort of "major" adjustment of the brakes with the anchor pins etc. so the brakes were never really great to begin with. One can't expect modern braking performance in these old cars but hopefully once I'm done, I will have brakes up to 50's standards and won't have to stand on the pedal to get it to stop.

[TJ Hopland]

These days I kinda hate to throw away vintage parts.  You never know what the quality of the new stuff will be.   There are still shops that reline old shoes so they can be re done.     

[David King (kz78hy)]

I found the some brands of shoes come with only the "shorter" brake material bonded to the shoes.  Raybestos had the correct primary and secondary shoes when I bought last fall.

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

......Is it preferred to get riveted linings over bonded? Does it matter? Should I hang onto these old shoes I have or is there enough stock I can chuck them? 

I prefer the Bonded shoes simply because they can be used for a lot longer than the rivetted ones.

CAUTION.   But a badly bonded shoe is not good either.   I have seen them break away when the brakes are overheated.   Overheating is the result of very poor driving practices.

One has to remember that with the rivetted linings, the rivets are only made out of Copper, but I have never seen those fail, apart from then the riveter used too much pressure and cracked the lining when setting the rivets.

Bruce.

[papas52cad]

Good luck on your brake repair, I am curious where u will buy the new shoes, cost and quality.
I just had my 52 caddy brakes checked last week, system flushed and new dot 4 added with a check of all shoes and drums, thank goodness all were in good shape, mechanic stated drums were mint😎, he said there were a few small cracks on rear shoe linings but still good without any separation. The previous owner ( 8000 miles and 4 yrs ago) had the rears relined by caddy daddy. I have the invoice There was a $200 core charge etc, cost was $150 for the set in 2016😉
If you are willing, pls share photos of new replacements, I'm sure it will be beneficial to others here on forum.
Good luck and hope u get to drive her soon.
Thx
Peter

[dn010]

Hi Peter,

I ordered new Raybestos brake shoes that are widely available (Amazon, Summit, etc) but I ordered them from Rockauto because I also needed wheel cylinder repair kits and they happened to ship from the same location as the shoes. The photos (and as David mentioned above) show the shoes having the correct length linings on each side and they also show the linings are riveted although certain sites like summit say they are bonded. I won't have them for another few days so I won't be able to comment on the quality and whether they actually are riveted, until they get here.
I had a new/different car come in yesterday that took up my time so I have been unable to inspect the other wheels of this car, but hopefully tonight I'll get to the passenger front. So far, I am not happy with the driver front drum - it will need to go to the machinist to be cut and that is if there is enough material on it. The outer edge ridge is pretty bad, and also a ridge has formed on the inside edge. There is no telling what the other drums look like yet but luckily, I do have a full set of 4 "spare" drums for this car that I can pull out of storage and use in case some are out of spec. At this point, I will be taking all drums to get cut regardless. I will take photos along the way and update as to my progress as it goes, time is usually pretty hard to come by during the week - when I think I have time to work on this car, something else of course has to come up, so most of this activities will happen during the weekend.

[Scott Nellis]

  If I have the choice I always use shoes and pads with riveted linings. I have seen lots of bonded ones come unglued over the years and have never seen a riveted one break free unless they were worn right through the rivets. Good luck with the '57 Dan. Your patience will be rewarded eventually.

[TJ Hopland]

I have not seen issues either way but I have not had to deal with a lot of front drums especially on heavy cars so things could be different there especially heat wise.   I don't remember the last time I saw anyone selling riveted anything. May be something you have to find an old time shop to do if you really want rivets. 

[dn010]

I have only heard or read stories of linings coming off the shoes, I've never actually had it happen to me on any car and I've driven some heavy ones from 1950+. I haven't heard any horrifying stories, just that the lining releases and kind of rides along until the car stops; some drive home with it released and others get a tow.

Tracking my shoes says now they won't be delivered until tomorrow so I'll still have no idea what I'm getting for another day.

Yesterday I took off the passenger front drum and it was the same story as the driver side - primary side of the wheel cylinder was frozen and the secondary side was dripping rust colored brake fluid. It's all disassembled waiting for parts, and hopefully tonight I can look at at least one side of the rear depending on the weather.

In trying to prepare the drums for the machinist, can the hubs be removed from the front drums?

[Lexi]

Best to read this CLC Forum post. Hub removal is discussed near the end but all is interesting. Clay/Lexi

https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=164690.msg494683#msg494683

[TJ Hopland]

Do you have to remove the hubs for some reason?   Brake lathes can usually take them with the hubs since there are designs where they don't come apart.   If there is a chance of them coming apart I would think re installing the lug nuts with some spacers if needed would make sure it stayed together.