57 brake condition question

[dn010]

Thanks for posting that Clay, I will give it a read.

If they can be cut with hubs on then no, I won't mess with separating them. I assumed they'd need to be removed. My spare front drums do not have hubs on them so that is where my confusion comes from.

[Lexi]

You are welcome Dan. I brought that question up (turning with hubs on) in another post. As I recall there should not be a problem. There are various drum lathes out there with a variety of adaptors to attach numerous drums. Removing the hub is a huge job and I think best left alone unless absolutely necessary. Say, if your drum was worn beyond turning spec and you bought a replacement (which don't have the hubs). Then you would have to look into having that job done. Clay/Lexi

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Definitely can be cut with the hubs as a complete unit.

Bruce.

[dn010]

The new shoes arrived today. I didn't realize Raybestos moved operations - box says "Made in China." They are bonded as some of the websites stated and also have the correct lining length from side to side. I dug out my pile of spare drums and the front ones are already cut! - but don't have the hubs  . Instead of going through the hassle of trying to remove the hubs from my current fronts (unless they're out of spec and I have to), I will just have the current ones cut and keep holding on to my spare fronts and hope I never need them. The spare rears have an outer lip but are smooth inside and overall pretty decent shape however I don't have a way to measure them so I'm not sure if they're useful or not, the machinist will have to tell me. I have the front wheel cylinders honed out and restored with new parts, shortly I'll be disassembling the rear ones for rebuild. And so it continues...

[Lexi]

Dan I am about to go down this road myself with my '56. In your research do you know what the difference is between the AC Delco vs Raybestos shoes? For 1956 & 57 on Rock Auto the GM ones are double the money. Clay/Lexi

[dn010]

Hi Clay, from what I gathered - both shoes are:

127's.
Organic material.
Bonded.
Last, but not least - Made in China, unfortunately.

In the end, I could only surmise they are charging for the Brand Name with people assuming AC Delco = GM/OEM/USA made parts. But the first sentence of their description:
"ACDelco Gold (Professional) Bonded Brake Shoes are a high quality alternative to Original Equipment (OE) parts." and most sites list the country of origin as China.

I would bet money if we compared Raybestos to ACDelco, the numbers printed on the shoes would be the same.

[Lexi]

Dan thanks. Interesting. In a different thread, someone speculated that the Delco shoes may wear longer, but if they are the same, perhaps not. If I remember that thread one member commented that if they were more durable they may wear the drums more quickly adding that he would sooner replace shoes then drums. Just trying to decide which ones to buy for my upcoming brake (and bearing) project. Keep us posted! Clay/Lexi

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Don't forget to take your drums and shoes to a reputable brake shop, and have the shoes radius-ground to fit the dimensions of the drums.

Plus, before you install the shoes, with a rasp, chamfer the top and bottom corners.   Don't use a grinder as that will only create unwanted brake dust.

Bruce.

[Lexi]

All good tips. Thanks. My professional mechanic buddy was over tonight and looked at the Rock Auto offerings and concluded as Dan did that you were paying for the branding with the AC Delco shoes, and that these are the same as the Raybestos. He said that these are all Chineseum. But at least they are still available. Clay/Lexi

[dn010]

Being organic material, they'll wear the same Raybestos vs. AC Delco. There are tons of articles out there about the material differences - organic vs. semi-metallic vs. ceramic.

In short:
Organic shoes will -
wear faster
less stopping power at higher temps
less harsh on your drums

Semi metallic will -
last longer
good stopping power at high temps
will wear your drums at a higher/faster rate

My preference is to have less brake dust and less wear on the drums. I am fine replacing some $20 shoes but I don't look forward to replacing drums, especially the fronts. So for me, I think the organic shoes will be fine. I don't drive all over, yet, and if I begin to and find there is a problem, one can always change the shoe material.

As an update, I've taken apart each wheel and ultimately, my car was being stopped by the primary sides of the front wheels - ONLY. Everything else was seized. The rear shoes were correct with short/long linings on them however I found my axle seal is leaking and at some point, oil found it's way to the linings. So as we all know too well, fixing one thing leads to numerous other issues and it will be just another bump in the road along with a wait for more parts to come in before this job is complete.

Here are my rear linings that have oil soaking the inner half:

[Lexi]

I agree. makes sense to me. Thanks for posting that info Clay/Lexi

[dn010]

I was finally able to work on this little project of mine today. My front drums were beyond spec so I was forced to pull them off the hubs and I am very glad I did, and I will tell you why below. I preemptively purchased new lug studs and lug nuts before all of this so I was ready to go.

The lug studs were pressed out using my 20 ton bearing press - it is one of those tools that takes up some good space but really saves you when you need it. The hub requires support from underneath or you'll bend the hub and drum, quite amazing considering how much steel is there but it is possible. Majority of the studs slid out pretty easily, some were more stubborn but nothing major. Pressing the new studs in again requires support, and those went in without issue. In all, it took me maybe 15-20 minutes per side, pressing the old studs out and new ones in. Driver's side drum didn't want to come off the hub - had to press it off, while the passenger side pretty much came apart once the factory studs were removed.

Below is a comparison of the old stud vs. the new. You'll notice the "swedge" portion on the old stud is much longer than the new. Because of this, the new stud is only captured by the hub, and leaves the drum the ability to slide on/off without being permanently captured as well - never again will I have to pull the entire hub, deal with possibly contaminating the bearings, getting grease all over and having to do a hub bearing adjustment. The center of the hub keeps the drum in position, so you know it is centered. Another benefit (for me, and my forgetfulness anyway) is that now I will have all the lug nuts turning the same way for removal (still have to do the rear axle - needs a seal anyway so it works out).

For those interested:
Lug Studs: Dorman 610-191 (10 studs)
Lug Nuts: Dorman 611-016 (25 lug nuts)

They are pretty cheap on Rockauto but I ended up getting them through Amazon so they'd get here sooner.

In the end, everything was cleaned up and painted. I did not paint the hubs yet because they'll be pulled again for new bearings. I did the "major" adjustment of the front brakes with the anchor pin, what a pain. But the fronts are done, rears will be tomorrow.

Photos below...

[Lexi]

Nice work Dan and good clear photos. Just curious but how did you support the hub and drum underneath? Also did you do any grinding OR did the shop press do it all? Clay/Lexi

[dn010]

Hi Clay,

My hi-tech hub support system consisted of two 32MM deep sockets situated on both sides of the stud being pressed, and one small adjustable wrench to take up the gap between the drum lip and the press. The press operates, the stud is pressed out between the two sockets and the wrench is there to prevent the whole assembly from tipping forward. Without it, the whole thing would "seesaw" with only two points of support - this is because the sockets are longer making the hub/drum assembly raise up off the press about 1/4 inch so that is where/why the wrench comes in to play. In a perfect world, if I had something that was the same length as the depth of the hub to the press, it would not raise up and you could get away with only the support around the stud. I am sure it is kind of hard to imagine just by description, I should have taken a photo.

Nothing was cut or ground down, it is not necessary with a press.

[Lexi]

Dan thanks! Again nice work. Clay/Lexi

[Jay Friedman]

Since you are doing a major overhaul of the brakes, in my opinion you would do well to have your master and wheel cylinders lined with brass or stainless steel which White Post Restorations in VA can do.  Also replace your steel hydraulic lines with stainless steel lines.  I did this to my '49 some years ago and have not had any problems since with master or wheel cylinders needing rebuilding nor rust in the hydraulic lines.  It's a pain to install the hydraulic lines, even if they are pre-bent, but well worth the effort. 

[dn010]

Hi Jay, thank you for the suggestion. Yesterday while trying to put everything back together, I realized my passenger front rubber brake hose couldn't reach the bracket. So, I compared what I had to what was available for sale on line. Turned out my bracket was bent way backwards on itself somehow. Upon fixing the bracket and trying to re-bend the brake line to reach its new location, I got wet spots on the line - brake fluid passing through pin holes. So, I will order a stainless brake line kit. As far as the sleeves, my MC was done years ago, my rear wheel cylinders are brand new - I will look into sending my fronts to White Post while I am doing the lines. Just makes sense to have a complete job.

Thank you all for your kind words and suggestions, it is nice to have some support behind all these endeavors we go through with these cars.

[dn010]

So it seems my inspection hole plugs have gone petrified. Are these years specific? Can "universal" or "generic" ones work? Any suggestions?