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Production numbers?

Started by cadwoman, September 26, 2022, 04:44:12 PM

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cadwoman

Hi everyone. 
I'm trying to help an auction house determine whether or not a car is a 1 of 4, as claimed by the current owner.  Unfortunately, the car is being sold by the former owner's son, since the owner had passed away about 6 years ago, and the son knows very little about the car.  The gentleman had a personalized license plate on the car which says, "1 of 4", but I can't find any reason why it would be so unique.  The car is a 1941 Series 67.  I got a photo of the data plate and that actually confused me even more!  The date plate shows the following:
Style No:  41-6719
Body No:   236
Trim No:   78
Paint No:   52
The car is dark blue, with the tan broadcloth in the front and the rear.  Now, the car does not have jump seats, but it DOES have a division window.  Wouldn't that be a series 41-6719F?  But the data plate does not have an F.  And as far as I can see in my research, they made 95 of these.  So, I'm really curious why he would have claimed it to be a 1 of 4.  Could it be they only made 4 in Antoinette Blue?  Would anyone be able to shed light on this for me?  I'd like to help the auction house represent it correctly.  It is a beautiful car and I'd love to see it not only go to a good home, but bring a price that would be accurate for the model and rarity (if applicable). 
Thank you! 
Lauren Cody
Stanley, WI

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#1
Unless someone has further insight, my advice would be to represent the car according to the body style number indicated on the tag while noting the division window. That way nobody will be able to claim the car was misrepresented should it ever come to that. I have no idea what could make the car "1 of 4" but the suggestion of color sounds plausible so use the language, "believed to be 1 of 4 originally painted Antoinette Blue but unconfirmed" which will again protect the seller and/or the auction house. In any case it's up the the buyer to use "due diligence" and so forth and is usually stated in the auction terms and conditions regardless of representations made.

Best of luck with the sale. 

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

cadwoman


Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

I agree with Eric except for one point. 6719 was not a division car.
 Bob
1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

#4
Hi, Lauren! I have owned both division cars. And Cadillac never could make up their mind about what to put on the data plates. The car is definitely a 6719F, but I can't remember whether or not the "F" was on my data plate. But the production of that car is  95.

I think the production of the 6733 Imperial was 233. I "think" that the data plate had "Fleetwood" on it, but can't be sure.

By chance, does the car have blanked out rear quarter windows? Ron Van Gelderen found a Series 67 in a junk yard that had that feature and THAT might be where the "one of four" comes from.

The car is rare enough with the division window that it should bring a good price. That was one of the cars I regret selling.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#5
Quote from: Barry M Wheeler #2189 on September 27, 2022, 12:06:43 PM...I can't remember whether or not the "F" was on my data plate.

I was wondering about the same thing. Seems unlikely the partition would have been installed post production which would have required serious talent.

I guess the only way to resolve it would be the serial # and a check for $50.00 to Allied Vaughn.   
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Bob Hoffmann CLC#96

1968 Eldorado slick top ,white/red interior
2015 Holden Ute HSV Maloo red/black interior.
             
Too much fun is more than you can have.

Barry M Wheeler #2189

The division was curved glass and snugged up against the headliner. I believe there were guides on the "B" pillar. I don't believe that there was a frame for the front seat as was done on the Imperials. The front seat could be moved some as there was fabric between the division and the top of the front seat back. The car also had a rear radio as well as one in the front. This car is pictured in the small Cadillac book by Le Roi Smith.(They did not # the pages.)

A later purchaser installed fog lamps. The NOS stone guards were ruined by the jerk that painted the car for the person I sold it to. Instead of slipping the front edge rubber between the fender and the body as you were supposed to do, he trimmed them to "fit" with a box knife.

I've mentioned this before, but so the info isn't "lost," one day I was sweeping out the back on my 6733 Imperial, I unfolded the jump seats and found some un-faded carpet way back against the bulkhead. It was a medium to light blue plush. Talk about something hard to keep clean...

I could have sold them for "my price" to the guy who bought the "Lil' Red Wagon" from Hollis Weigh. It made me almost sick when I saw what he'd done. (I'd traded a NOS 60S stone guard for the pair of the '61/'63/ '67 stone guards. I'd bought a NOS pair in 1958 from Hoosier Cadillac for $6.25 each for my "first" 6127.)

One last thing, the grills to let heat get into the rear compartment were the same as on the 1956 Fleetwood 60S that I owned about the same time.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

cadwoman

Thank you for your input Eric, Bob, and Barry (Hi Barry!!)  My thought, too, was that the F just didn't make it onto the data plate for whatever reason, because I agree, to install a division window post-production does seem pretty improbable! 

Here is a link to the car on the auction house's site for anyone who's interested in seeing it:
https://www.remlingerauctions.com/lot/1941-cadillac-2/

I don't remember how long it normally takes to get the info from Allied Vaughn, but I could ask and see. 

Again, thank you all! 

Lauren

dochawk

Quote from: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on September 26, 2022, 09:10:58 PMI agree with Eric except for one point. 6719 was not a division car.

shooting from the hip, but could it be 1 of 4 that somehow got special ordered with it anyway?
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#10
Lauren...I see it's already being professed as having been "1 of 4 made". Unless it can be substantiated, I would suggest having that statement removed. 

Allied had been pretty quick in the past but I can't speak for their response time in the post Covid world.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Barry M Wheeler #2189

In looking the car over, unless the seats had special springs, or were altered to the owner's specs, I saw nothing that looks SO. (Mine had Hydramatic, too.) I got a 1941 60S rear seat cushion from Martin Blasinski years ago that did have special springs. They are still hard as a rock.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

cadwoman

Ah...I thought they said that they had removed any mention of the 1 of 4, but I will remind them that it's still on there.  Thanks!

TMoore - NTCLC

My bet is that the car at one time belonged to a club member (I only say that because of the fender protector in the trunk).  1 of 4 could be anything - maybe he owned 4 cars, or 4 Cadillacs, or (improbable) 4 Series 67s.

dochawk

Gosh, with the mode, Uncle Phil could have labeled his 1941s with "1 of 50" and so forth!

:_)
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

cadwoman

LOL you are right about Uncle Phil! That's too funny! 

Eric...I contacted Allied Vaughn and they said they'd rush one for me, so I submitted the request today.  Thanks so much for the reminder of that resource!

I will keep you all posted!    :D

harry s

Can't wait to see what the build sheet says.    Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Harry, tomorrow, get in the back, pull up the jump seats and see if you find any trace of the original carpeting up against the divider that might be un-faded by the sun like I did with my 6733. (Just for fun...Inquiring minds want to know.)

I loved the plush carpet that they used. Someone mentioned having four 67s at the same time. I did have two of them at once. I always thought they were cooler than the 75s.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

Carfreak

Quote from: Barry M Wheeler #2189 on September 29, 2022, 10:46:58 PMSomeone mentioned having four 67s at the same time. I did have two of them at once.

I always thought they were cooler than the 75s.


As a 42 Series 67 owner I would agree too Barry. 
Enjoy life - it has an expiration date.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: cadwoman on September 29, 2022, 08:27:38 PMEric...I contacted Allied Vaughn and they said they'd rush one for me, so I submitted the request today. 

Good move. Interested parties are sure to find the documentation reassuring. I'm curious myself what will be revealed. Hopefully you'll also receive a specs guide in the bargain.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute