News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

58 Cad, frame crack.

Started by Coral58, March 23, 2023, 12:42:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Coral58

I've owned my 58,for over 32 years, thoroughly enjoying it. It's well cared for(babied),fair weather drives and club tours. Heated and now air-conditioned garage. Regulars have been answering my recent trials. While wiping down the front cross member ,I found a tiny crack about 3/8"starting near the  left lower control arm, not sure how long it's been there. Plan to have it looked at professionally, when the weather breaks. Has anyone experienced this,  and what did you do?

V63

#1
Yes, it was a quite common fail... for whatever reason it seems most prevalent in 1958 models. The frames were essentially the same from 1957-60.

I suspect it has to do the the added stresses of failing lower ball joints which were unavailable for a number of years before being reproduced.

The tear is from the lower A frame attachment,  in the sheet metal riveted to the engine cradle.

A stitch (weld)  in time saves nine in this case, it will continue to fatigue and tear until repaired.

bcroe

I had a car with extra sway bars, it did a
pretty flat turn.  But one day those started
to creak, I found a frame crack on each side
near the front suspension. 

I bought my first arc welder and put a patch
on each side, never heard a creak again. 
Bruce Roe

Lexi

Quote from: Coral58 on March 23, 2023, 12:42:19 PMI've owned my 58,for over 32 years, thoroughly enjoying it. It's well cared for(babied),fair weather drives and club tours. Heated and now air-conditioned garage. Regulars have been answering my recent trials. While wiping down the front cross member ,I found a tiny crack about 3/8"starting near the  left lower control arm, not sure how long it's been there. Plan to have it looked at professionally, when the weather breaks. Has anyone experienced this,  and what did you do?

Intend on responding in a more complete way, but just running out the door now. I have an interesting story to tell regarding this and what to look for. Will follow up on your question probably later tonight or tomorrow. Clay/Lexi

Flying Finn

If I can chime in on this one.
I'm not overly experienced with the cracking issues on a 57.
I can tell you this , that you need as mentioned look at all the components that may have caused
this area to crack ?
I personally wouldn't weld in a patch. unless this is truly a issue that occurred in the days they were new, with a well performing car.
another words no issues outside of a factory engineering flaw.
and then welding it I would have a professional guy  MIG weld it ! ( wire feed ) and not some guy with his Harbor freight welder that he says its rated for 1/4 inch.
Best of luck , Jaan

   

dadscad

My dad had a 58 CDV he bought new in 58. It became the family driver for mom in 63 when he bought a new 63 CDV. In 66, I was driving the 58 when the right side lower cross member tore almost in half.  To say the least, that was quite a jolt and surprise. The car was taken too a shop and the cross member was put back in position and welded. It was good to go the rest of the time we had the car.
Enjoy The Ride,
David Thomas CLC #14765
1963 Coupe deVille

Lexi

About 4 years ago my 1956 Caddy suddenly developed extreme LH side tire wear. The RH tire was similar though not as worn. The tires also squealed when taking corners at low speed but sounded as if doing 60. I was also aware of unusual creaking noises.

Inspection revealed that the front end was cracked in a number of places. Of note was that the first cross member was cracked where the lower RH side control suspension arm shaft attaches. I was aware of reports that there had been similar failings in 1958 Cadillacs. Further inspection revealed several other cracks in the front frame area. There was also at least one loose rivet. Yes, this frame is both a welded and a riveted unit.

As my engine was out I worked with a shop to have a professional welder MIG weld these spots to repair. See attached images of a sampling of my photos. Areas of failure are red circled. Compare to their repair images. The opinion of the shop owner was had the frame originally been all welded, perhaps none of this would have occured. His speculation was that the frame was subjected to undo stress once key rivets became loose. As the car is a factory stretched Limousine, the extra weight and perhaps the driving habits that she may have been exposed to in the past were also factors.

The frame where the lower control suspension arm shaft was breaking away was re-enforced with weld around the mounting holes as well as having the crack repaired. The shop also fabricated a metal piece to further support this area. I rather thought their fab work was odd in design, espeically as I am aware of 2 same spot repairs both on 1958 Cads, though re-enforced differently. That said, my repairs were succesful and to date they routinely pass inspection. Other welds were included "just in case", to ensure that the frame was structurally sound. See attached images.

I am inclined to agree with the Flying Finn to have a professional welder do this job. The shop owner who is a licensed mechanic who routinely welds, agreed. Fortunately this took place while my engine was out of the car so access to the areas in need of repair was greatly improved. Depending on what you find, you may not be so lucky.

In your case I would thoroughly clean the front frame area so all grease and dirt are removed so you can properly inspect for any additional damage. In the June 2022 Self Starter I wrote an article on another frame repair on my '56. Based on reports that is also a potential problem spot for these cars.

Thus far Lexi now seems fine but these were serious issues. You may also find that your lower control arm might need replacing. While these are not reproduced, and are different than the '55 unit, (shock mounting), Rare Parts Inc in California can supply most replacement front end components for your car. Good luck. Clay/Lexi

PHIL WHYTE CLC 14192

This is a common problem on 58s. It happened on my 58 back in the 1980s.

fishnjim

What's the mileage this is appearing?
Why would anyone weld the gap of a riveted part?   Not proper repair?  Cleaning and spot welding would be better or drill out the rivets and fill weld the holes completely.  I suspect it was "easy".   [I'll probably get a back lash on that one.]
This got my radar up at least for the '58.   I didn't see any sign of weaknesses when I had the engine out and re-did the front suspension. I inspected the whole frame before I got it.  I did add a 1" sway bar but not many miles since.  Still not on the road, waiting on me.  Now tractor issues taken priority.
I suspect some corrosion component along with fatigue.  Crevice corrosion can happen between two pieces of metal riveted together.  Cavity acts liek a capillary and holds water.  Corrosion thins the cross sections then it can't hold the load at some point(yield stress). Movement makes the crack, much like taking a coat hanger and bending back and forth til it snaps.
This can just be a consequence of a 65 year old machine designed in the days before stress analysis.  Frame rot was most prevalent in snow country.  Snow with road salt would get packed in the frame space and once salt gets in, good bye steel.  The bend behind the rear wheel was a popular GM failure point.  Bending creates stresses which promote corrosive attack.
It's always tricky welding up a crack, some say you can't, other do it.  From my Met E days, a fatigue crack end extends beyond what you can see, so that's why they made dye penetrant for examining equipment.  We studied the mechanism in grad school, but more from the atomic side, aka dislocation theory.
We broke an Henry A-frame doing donuts in the snow in HS in '60s.  Friend's dad owner made us fix it.  First A-frame change.  My dad's gas station operator had some junks in the back and we found one, "for free" but didn't have the tool to take it off, like a 3-4" socket was needed.  Mechanic loaned us one or we'd still be in detention!  The metal where it pivoted was rather thin and weak, not a good design.  Large moment arm with an A.

64\/54Cadillacking

I'm curious to know if this specifically is a rust or stress related issue?

And is this problem more prevalent on early X-frame Caddies?

I feel like I need to check underneath my Cads for stress cracks. What exact location on the frame besides for the A-Arms would you guys recommend inspecting?
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

V63

It's a stress Metal fatigue issue from undesired flex in the 3/16? plate steel riveted to engine cradle . The inside fastening of the lower A frames stress and tear out. I have seen it numerous times in a few 1957 but mostly 1958. I suspect the quality of metal was at issue.

fishnjim

I'll have to investigate more but good to ring the bell on this.
My early thought would be the rivet spacing is not good or manufacturing defect/riveting issue.   The engine mounts to that area through a hole created by the joint of pieces and it's getting full Monty from the engine above and suspension below.   
Repair: Think of an end rivet of two plates like two pieces of bread stacked.  If you (weld) spread peanut butter along just the outside of one of the sides in the crack/space, you create a "hinge" - which allows movement to continue.  If you cover the whole piece with PB and stick them together, it's a more solid sandwich.
One of the "treasures" of owning and dealing with these dyno-saurs.  And of course the car manufacturers would never own up to any defects back then.   Knowledge just wasn't there.
ps:The X frame actually stiffens the structure, so much so, in a head on crash, the driver and front passengers get propelled out through the windshield.  My aunt(s) did twice, in a '55 and a'59 Poncho.   This was before they learned about crash energy absorbing design.  I recall pre-seat belts, watching the State Police educational videos in school and the carnage-o-day.

Lexi

#12
At the time I was happy just to find someone willing to repair this damage. Tough here just to find a garage to do a tune up on these old cars, let alone tackle this project. The rivet in question is not in ether of the above photos, but it was welded. Some of the welds visible in the posted photos are "just in case" welds with OK rivets nearby. Probably would have been better to repair the loose rivet as you suggested, but I got it returned welded. Other shots show welds to fix a crack. Both the mechanic and the professional welder were critical of how these frames were made, especially of the use of rivets. Few if any of us are structural engineers and I think I would have been told to take a hike had I presented an MIT laundry list of metal fatigue tests for the shop to conduct. At the time what was presented as a repair strategy seemed reasonable to this lay person.

What is most important is whether the repairs were succesful. While I do much work on my car, I still take it in once a year to have these repairs inspected while on a hoist. I do this as with my luck I would get a defective hockey puck. All still OK after 6,500 miles. I have also continually monitored the tire tread depth for signs of unusual wear. None so far, front or back. I also replaced the worn out front 2 tires immediatley following welding.  With the exception of the "fracture" like crack in above image #1 (where the A-arm shaft attaches), as well as one fine hairline crack elsewhere; the remaining cracks appeared in factory welds (as seen in one of the above photos), with the host metal channel appearing unaffected.

I had planned to write another Self Starter article on this as a companion piece to the one I did on the rear cross member failure last year.  Should anyone have photographs or information on their frame damage I would be interested with a view to possibly publishing them in a future SS, with your permission. This is timely stuff. I had originally reported this front frame issue at length in the old CLC Mid Century Cadillac site and while its information is now gone, one member commented that owning an old car is a lot more than applying a shiny coat of paint or a new interior. Stuff like this happens and it must be searched for and dealt with. As I wrote in my June 2022 Self Starter article, I quoted the shop mechanic as saying "GM didn't expect to see these cars creeping around the planet 65 years later". Clay/Lexi

Clarification Note: In my last post in this thread I stated "Based on reports that is also a potential problem spot for these cars". That comment was regarding the rear cross member issue, which I imagine would be far less likey to occur in models after 1956 due to the frame design change. So "these cars" referred to 1956 models and back, as per the SS article. Also, A-arm availability comments pertain to 1956 lower control arms which differ slightly than the '55s. Unaware of how the '58 may further differ.

V63

1957 was the first of Cadillacs ball joint technology vs kingpins prior. I view it as a fail from a longevity perspective as 30-40k miles probably needing replacement of lower ball joints at least that has been my experience. There were lower ball joint 'kits' available early on that temporarily fixed your existing lower ball joints.

64\/54Cadillacking

#14
Ball joints are far less sturdy from what I've read up on than the Kingpin design. But where the ball joint setup excelled in was further suspension articulation which sorta gave you that "floaty ride" up front. I think due to the massive weight of Cadillacs, maybe the early ball joint era Cads suffered from premature wear, and the frame's itself couldn't handle the added weight of the cars on the early models?

So were the X-frame Cads stronger in terms of rigidity than the '56 on down years with the fully boxed, and X-frame designed frames? It would seem as if the early to mid 50's Cadillacs had a stronger frame, thus would resist stress cracks better even with rivets? .

I could be wrong, but every time I take a peek underneath my '54, I am amazed how massive the frame is. It looks like the body is sitting on top of a bridge. It makes my '64 Cad look weak in comparison since the metal gauge and thickness of the 54's frame looks to be much more heavily robust than the '64.

I'm going to take a peak at the center cradle and cross member under both of my Cads to check for any small cracking. This is a great thread and definitely an educational eye opener.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Lexi

Quote from: 64\/54Cadillacking on March 25, 2023, 04:00:40 AMI'm going to take a peak at the center cradle and cross member under both of my Cads to check for any small cracking. This is a great thread and definitely an educational eye opener.

64\/54Cadillacking good idea. While not the subject of this thread, closely inspect your car's rear cross member which is the one forward of your gas tank. This primarily serves as a support for your shocks. The following is a quote from my June 2022 Self Starter article on this little nightmare;

"The cross member is a 46 ΒΌ inch long steel rectangular "C" channel that flares at each end. A cover plate was spot welded at 24 points to seal the unit and increase structural integrity. Primarily this is a support for the rear shocks. This was NOT a homogenous length of rectangular steel tubing, but a two piece unit that was fastened together with spot welds along the cover plate seams"...The Cadillac Master Parts List (1956), notes this item as "Cross Member, Intermediate, In Front Of Fuel Tank" (See attached image)

Mine tore itself apart as the spot welds failed, like unbuttoning a shirt. Then twisting action did the rest of what I like to call "The coat hanger effect", resulting not only in this part pulling away from the side rails but also tearing with a chunk falling off onto the road. Many of the spot weld tacks had previously let go. While this appears to have been an extreme case it is not an isolated problem. Have since learned of others. I would not be surprised if there are members driving around with this part in an early stage of failure in their 1950 - 1956 Cadillacs, and perhaps even earlier model years, (unsure just how far back that cross member design goes). Big frame changes would probably nix this problem for the 1957 and later model years.

In the Self Starter article I also included 10 photographs. For readers who are not CLC members you should consider joining, (think is cheaper now to join as an E-member), so you can access many of the SS magazines and tech stuff as well as other benefits. And no, Ronnie Hux and Jeff Shively are not paying me off! It just makes sense.

As others as well as myself have suggested it would be beneficial to have this Forum designed to organize topics for quick reference, but that would now be a gargantulan job. Clay/Lexi

Coral58

Thanks for all your comments and ideas, finally found a mobile welder very  local.My 58 had been on my hoist since Easter trying to find someone who I trusted and felt comfortable ,working on my car.A local metal  fabricator,arranged to come  last week, I had the area paint stripped, sanded,well illuminated. He arrived on time, cut and ground out each crack and welded one at a time, welded in two supports I had  designed  to take stress off the  frame. Three  hours in  total, very reasonable price. Other  welders were leary of liability issues.