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How many are left ?

Started by billyoung, March 12, 2023, 09:31:08 AM

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David Greenburg

Survival rate is an interesting question that is probably next to impossible to resolve.  Undoubtedly a far greater percentage of certain models, like '59 Biarritz, '57-'58 Eldo Broughams have survived as these cars were always special, even at the "low points" of their life cycle when other models were just "old used cars." I'm sure there are far more than 45 '60 Sevilles in existence.  Using Bill's factor of 5 times the 37 owned by CLC members suggests that around 185 of the 1075 produced still survive, a survival rate of around 17%. 

Looking more generally at survival rates for model years, in researching the '59-'60 pitman arm recall issue, I came across some interesting data. In the leadup to the recall, GM submitted a 1978 memo to NHTSA stating that the R L Polk had reviewed state DMV registration records and determined that 22,353 of the total of 284,456 '59-'60 Cadillacs produced were still on the road at that time. That amounts to just under 8%.  Even if one assumes that few of these cars were subsequently destroyed by rust, collisions or crushers, and adds 50% to this total to account for cars that were off the road at that time, it means that no more than 11-12% of these cars still exist.   
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

billyoung

Very interesting David. I well remember I was in High School in Rochester, New York  when that 1959 and 60 Cadillac Pitman arm recall happened and my good friend Dave Laughton had a rusty 1960 Cadillac Superior Landau Hearse and me with my long hair and David with his ponytail showed up at Valley Cadillac for his shiny new Pitman arm to be installed no charge. With disdain they did the repair. That car did not last that long as David brought the car to get new springs installed at a place in downtown and they left the car outside at night and someone broke all the windows out of it. The end.
Age 68, Living in Gods waiting room ( Florida ) Owned over 40 Old Cadillac's from 1955's to 1990 Brougham's. Currently own a 1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and a 1992 Cadillac 5.7 Brougham.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

The NHTSA data is a good start but the problem is that it only covers cars whose registration is current. The car sitting in the old lady's shed for 30 years is off the radar and wouldn't be accounted for. It's when values for a given model rise sharply that these hidden cars start coming out of the woodwork such as the case with the '59 Biarritz for a survival rate of around 30%. The '60 Eldorado probably isn't all that far behind, especially in view that for many years the 1960 model was held in higher regard than its predecessor which would contribute to its survival. Using the same metric as Bill's for the '59 EBZ, that would put the number of '60 Eldorado Sevilles at ~ 325 and '60 Biarritzes at ~ 385.   
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

David Greenburg

Bill: You should have seen the dealer's reaction when I, a young NHTSA attorney at the time, showed up in '89 asking for my new pitman arm. Of course they didn't have any, although they sourced a used one. I didn't realize until a few years later that the replacement was also a defective one.

Eric- I agree that the Polk data would be an undercount, which is why I posited an additional 50% to cover ones not on the road. But I'm not sure the survival rate for Sevilles would be as high a Biarritz's.  I imagine some Sevilles were sacrificed for or converted to, Biarritzs.  OTOH, I suppose a neglected coupe is more likely to resist the elements than a neglected convertible.
David Greenburg
'60 Eldorado Seville
'61 Fleetwood Sixty Special

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: David Greenburg on March 21, 2023, 03:28:27 PMI imagine some Sevilles were sacrificed for or converted to, Biarritzs.  OTOH, I suppose a neglected coupe is more likely to resist the elements than a neglected convertible.

The convertible body style eventually became more sought after while the Seville would have better resisted the elements as you say. I'd say it's probably a wash. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

64\/54Cadillacking

I was always curious to know if Cadillac owners knew that their 1930's-60's Cads would ever be classics or collector items 50+years later?

Specifically the '59-60's years and a handful of others.

Basically once lavishly styled Cads went away, and the quality took a severe hit right after the 1968 model year I would assume that many owners would have opted to keep their older Cadillac and continue to drive them or preserve them as they saw the decline in the cars decades later.

Also, the condition and where the car is located plays a huge part determining if the car was worth saving for the owner and the surviving rate of some Cads. I believe too many great vintage Caddies were prematurely scrapped due to rust is another obvious culprit. But then you need to factor in car accidents, car fires, and vandalism that might have forced someone send the car off to the crusher.


This is why I am firm believer if you have deep pockets and can afford to restore a highly desirable Caddy that might be an extreme project for most people, I say go for it, because the more old Cadillacs we can keep on the road for a lifetime, the better. Keeping history alive and going strong is vitally important.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

billyoung

Two more thoughts, one, another Rochester, New York story about 1991 thru 1993 Jim Cristo who owned Cristo Collision there frame off restored a number of 1959 Series 62 convertibles and two Eldorado Biarritz's one was triple Argyle Blue and the other a triple Persion Sand, the Persion sand car had been in a junk yard in the Northwest since 1967 and you could see the dashboard from below the rear bumper. He bought from Buffalo a '59 SeVille Coupe with a perfect floorpan and cut the Coupe from the firewall to the trunk and side to side and welded it into the Biarritz perfectly. The other thought is about 30 years ago in California the idiots came up with the "Clunker Crusher law" giving tax credits for junking older cars and crushing cars in junk yards. There went tons of parts cars and complete restorable cars.
Age 68, Living in Gods waiting room ( Florida ) Owned over 40 Old Cadillac's from 1955's to 1990 Brougham's. Currently own a 1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible and a 1992 Cadillac 5.7 Brougham.

Clewisiii

I guess we cannot forget the ones that died for stuff like this and demolition derbies.  Which are still happening though in much smaller quantities jlf0dlx1btt31.jpg
"My interest is in the future, because I am going to spend the rest of my life there."  Charles Kettering

Cadman-iac

Quote from: Clewisiii on March 21, 2023, 07:13:20 PMI guess we cannot forget the ones that died for stuff like this and demolition derbies.  Which are still happening though in much smaller quantities jlf0dlx1btt31.jpg

  Is this the one that was in one of the Mad Max movies?
 For some reason it looks familiar to me. What a waste!
CLC# 32373
1956 Coupe Deville A/C car "Norma Jean"

Jerry Puma

I have kept the 1964 Eldorado survivor roster for over 35 years. I have 328 documented (VIN and data plate information), but I know there are more out there, as a surprisingly large number (to me) of owners refuse to "reveal" their car's data. I guess more and more people are reluctant to give out information these days.

The on-line survivor roster on the New Cadillac Database is inaccurate, as new cars have not been added by its administrator in over five years, and he does not reply to messages, so I have stopped sending them to him.
Jerry Puma
1964 Eldorado
1961 Series 62 6-window

Suntuned

The figure was Generaly a 10% survival rate at the end of 10 years .      How many 84-85 Fleetwood or Eldo diesel's survived? I have an 84 Fleetwood Brougham d'elegance diesel, 2000 Cady diesels built including front wheel drive V6 diesels in 84.  200 Fleetwood diesels built in 1985 how many are left??  my uncle had an 85 Fleetwood diesel RWD he drove it to 250,000 miles then sold it . All i ever replaced on that engine where glow plugs drive belts and an oil pump drive .Back in the day i was mechanic in a local truck repair shop. I repaired a lot of 5.7 diesel's, out here in Ag country there where a lot of them. If you want to know anything about 5.7 diesels I can tell you.

tluke

My Cad is a 55-7523X - the business sedan limo. Only 1075 made (+841 of the formal limo). It would be nice to know how many are left. Besides my Cad I have a '57 Continental Mark II. The '56 and '57 were the two Mark II years. The Mark II forum keeps a database of all the known current owners and their VINs. A total of 3005 cars were built in the two years. The forum has identified the "current" owners of 1858 of them. The Mark II guys are tenacious about tracking them down. That's about 62% of the cars built. For just the '57 model (only 572 built) it's at 82%.  Sorry to mention a non-Caddy but it sure would be nice to have a list like that for Cadillacs. Of course there's many more Cads and many more years than 2.
1955 Cadillac Series 75
1957 Continental Mark II
1986 Ford F250