WTB: HT4100 crank hub

Started by smokuspollutus, January 06, 2022, 09:57:18 PM

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smokuspollutus

Hi guys, looking for a crank hub for my '83. Presently this one seems seized on to the crank. I'm going to keep trying to remove it without destroying it, but would like to have another in case this gets violent.

Parts manual does not call out a specific number for it, but it is stamped 1618013. Can be found on 82-85 longitudinal (v belt equipped) 4100 cars. Possibly the same part for 85-95 transverse 4.1/4.5/4.9, but not sure.

Thank you!

Anthony
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

You really need the correct puller to remove it.

Those hammer markings are not looking good.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

79 Eldorado

Bruce,
Anthony had another thread where the puller he was using looked like a proper puller for the job. I think he's even done these before. I'm not certain where the marks came from. This photo is better than the ones posted prior as the puller was in the way and throwing the focus off I think.

Scott

The Tassie Devil(le)

That hub has had more pounds put on it than an oversize pile driver.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

smokuspollutus

Hi guys, this is actually not the hub in question. This one is on my 4.5 liter engine build that is on a stand in my garage. The markings on the hub are actually grease that squeezed out when I installed it. Not hammer marks.

I'll poke around for that thread.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

Big Fins

Not to argue because I'm not holding that part in my hand, but I've never seen grease marks dent metal like that. Just sayin'.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top.
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top.

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

smokuspollutus

Then why say anything at all?

To clarify, the photo is representative of what I'm looking for. Not the actual part needing to be removed.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

fishnjim

If it is "seized", FYI, you'll destroy the crank trying to remove it, as I alluded in the other post, not enough pulling power with a puller.   Probably won't heat or press off either(guess) but needs to come out to press.   It might just be do to random tolerance issues.  ie, crank is "over" size and the hub is "under", so the normal tolerance gap is not there but could be fitted.

If it wasn't installed with lube or antiseize, and assuming it's being done correctly and you can't get it with the puller, the clean metal surfaces can "friction weld"(not the "stir" solid state process kind) and bond to each other molecularly.  aka "seized" and what anti-seize is for.   Some refer to as rust welding, but a misnomer.
Since this motor is in the "twilight zone", passed it's prime/parts discontinued and not available, then probably into looking at the parts yards for one.   But a hub alone won't help, if this one won't budge.   You'll have to swop the whole crank(bearings etc.).   May want to consider a complete crankshaft to be safe.   I personally stay away from the '70-80s period.



smokuspollutus

Thanks Jim. Yes, losing hope of getting this thing off without making a mess, but am stuck in a hard spot as I need to reseal the timing cover. Can't really turn back now. If the existing one can be cut off, I'm not above "opening up" the ID of a replacement ever so slightly and just leaving the installer bolt installed as an extra measure of security. As luck would have it, I DO have a spare 4100 crank (no hub, d'oh!) but really don't want to start that job.

As you mention, probably a freak tolerance mismatch. I've never ever had an issue removing these before. I almost wonder if a big block Cad shares the same part with the 4100. Doubt it, but they did lift the whole belt drive layout and pulley/balancer/hub setup from the older motor. I'm going to do some digging.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

hornetball

Is your hub aluminum?  My '74 500 hub was steel.  Someone in the past had tried to take it off without the correct puller and broke a section off.  I got a billet replacement from Cad Company.  Cad Company machines them and could probably do one for the 4100 too if supplied an original part or drawing.  For that matter, a local machine shop could probably do it too.

If aluminum, there might be some dissimilar metal corrosion going on.

Poncholover

Guy I used to work with had one of those "Hook & Tows" (HT engines)
He threw cubic dollars at it, I think it was a "battle of wills" Bet he paid for that car 3 times over.
This was a very sharp guy too. That was a topic never to be discussed  ::)
Flattie Caddy

Big Fins

Quote from: smokuspollutus on January 07, 2022, 07:35:50 AM
Then why say anything at all?

To clarify, the photo is representative of what I'm looking for. Not the actual part needing to be removed.

Look at the time we were posting. Within a few minutes of each other. I was unaware that the hub pictured was not the one in question. Had I known that going in, I would have reserved comment.

Looking at the pictured hub, that thing looks like it took a serious pounding with both a hammer and a drift. I'm looking at these pictures with a 32" screen that really shows details when needed. I don't post here meaning to offend anyone.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top.
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top.

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

smokuspollutus

Thanks guys. Just checked, hub is not aluminum (it's magnetic). So that doesn't  totally rule out dissimilar metals problems but it's a step in the right direction.

Just did some research. As in a rock auto search. As it turns out, big block crank hub is different, front main seals have different diameters in all respects between the two. So much for that.

Found a picture online of a hub on a 4100 that looks slightly different and is stamped with a different part number 1628498. Image Attached. Oddly enough the parts manual does not call out either one of these numbers separately.

Also thinking now that this may be a longitudinal-only 4100 part. Fantastic. But, guessing if someone out there has it, they'll be on this site.

Thank you for all the help and discussion guys.

1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

smokuspollutus

Found one, should have thought to reach out to a mechanic friend! If anyone needs 4100 or Northstar work in Michigan, contact me and I will put you in touch with him. Mods, topic can be locked.

Thank you everyone.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

79 Eldorado

Anthony,
Glad you found the part. Don't you still need to remove the old one? I guess if that's true the replacement is still needed as removal may be destructive. Before the thread closes what's the plan? Did you end-up taking the engine out or did you feel clearance/access wasn't really the issue?

Even if it ends up being a careful destructive removal it would still be a little more reassuring to figure out why it wouldn't come off.

Scott

smokuspollutus

Hi Scott. Not removed yet, but banking on it getting messy.

Ended up breaking above pictured puller without so much as a millimeter of movement. That made the second one broken on this thing. As I mentioned, I have this car stored at my other house so it's been the occasional weekend project as this is a busy time of year for me. Plan is to head back up there with the new part, one more new puller and a fresh can of MAPP gas and give it one more shot. Since having an extra part in hand usually assures your existing one will be reusable, maybe it will just pop. Probably not. So I'll take the angle grinder and chisel too, and if needed, enjoy hacking the hub to pieces

Ideally try to split it on the thin part by the keyway, and remove. Going to polish up the ID of the new hub to make it a tiny bit bigger, liberally apply anti seize, press on and just leave the installer bolt threaded to keep it secure.

Access is really not the issue. I'm able to stand in the engine compartment (also doing a radiator recore) so I guess it's just some freak occurrence.

If mods want to leave this open, I'll follow up with results in the coming weeks. Warning, images may be graphic.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

79 Eldorado

The split it with a chisel was what I was thinking you may need to resort to. Maybe I'm over thinking it but the crank is sitting on bearings/ in bearing caps so if you were able to use something which gradually split it after slicing the side with the angle grinder it might be the safest plan. Maybe a puller could act as a jack screw for something acting like a wedge. If you scored the hub on the diameter, both sides, and made the end cuts big enough to almost fit a sacrificial drill bit in sideways across the two splits maybe the puller could be used the force something against the drill bit, forcing it into the gap, and causing the hub to crack along the score.

That said if I had my air chisel within reach it might be hard to resist. I could go with the reasoning that if I angled the impact normal the crank axis a spark/air/fuel explosion causes a ton of impacts every time an engine is running.

It would be interesting to see what the key and key-way looks like.

Hope it goes well once you have a chance to get back to it.

Scott 

smokuspollutus

For what it's worth, I was able to get it off without destroying it (after of course, I was able to get another hub). Harbor freight came to the rescue with a 16 dollar puller, stacked a million washers around the bolts so the tool wouldn't bend, put some extra bolts in the unused holes and jammed a giant screwdriver between them wedged against the power steering pump to keep the engine from rotating. Then went to town and it broke free. No obvious signs of corrosion, so I don't know exactly why this happened. Reinstalled just fine using a M16-2.0x1m threaded rod and nut, again with screwdriver locking engine in place. GM was tight lipped about the thread spec for some reason. Oh, and anti-seize was applied  ;D
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

Congratulations.   But, one question is why use Anti-seize when replacing the hub?

You don't want this coming off.   Did you install a holding bolt to retain it.

The only time I use Anti-seize is for Spark Plugs so that they can be easily removed, especially in Aluminium Heads, or situations where I have a means of locking the "thing" in place that I don't want to come undone.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

smokuspollutus

Hi Bruce. Yes, I did add a bolt to keep it all where it's supposed to be. Why anti-seize? Well, I felt it would be remiss not to, considering the trouble I had and the fact that I had the can there. Will it help? God willing I'll never know.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe
1983 Sedan deVille