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500ci intermittent lifter tick rough idle

Started by hotrod095, January 19, 2022, 05:16:06 AM

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Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#20
This may sound like a stupid question,  but--
Does the lifter tick seem to come from the same place every time?
The reason I ask is that I chased a tick for a while but didn't seem to always come from the same place.
Turns out the pivot holes on the rockers were worn and the rockers had a little wobble to them.  I ended up removing all of them and measuring them up to the closest pedestal and it took care of the problem.
Took me a while to figure that out.

As for starting it and letting it run, I agree with everyone-- Bad idea.
Once I changed the oil on a plane that had been sitting and was cold. That had a quick drain on it so it was easy to see the oil that first came out of it without my hand blocking it by holding the drain plug.
Almost a thimble's worth of water came out. Starting yours and not letting it fully warm up just puts all that moisture up in your engine.
Good luck,
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

TJ Hopland

Are you sure its not an exhaust leak at the manifold?  Those can sound like a tick and change with engine temp.   These engines are known to be hard on exhaust manifold gasket if you use them.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

hotrod095

Quote from: hornetball on January 22, 2022, 10:31:57 AM
You NEED to replace the timing gears.  I would avoid driving much until that's done.  When you do that, you can inspect/refresh your valve train.

https://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=154660.msg424523#msg424523

Hornetball, was the car running strangely prior to tackling the timing set? As far as noises, it doesn't sound like an exhaust leak but I could be wrong. It sounds like a metallic clacking. I remember the noise on the pass side exhaust manfiold which I have fixed.

I am restoring the body this winter and don't want to start a new project at the moment. I have heard that the timing set on this car is a real issue and have been putting this off. Mine has the original timing set which I'm sure is cracked due to the constant changing of seasons here.  :-\ I was contemplating pulling the engine eventually and doing everything at once: rear main seal, intake manifold refresh and gaskets, heads ground down and trued, timing set etc however I heard this is a huge job and I don't know of any mechanics who are willing to do this in my area.

hornetball

Car wasn't running great due to 3 bad camshaft lobes and some valve stem problems/plugged pushrods.  The timing gear wasn't causing an issue, but it was about to go (big cracks).  And when it goes, you lose your timing and plug your oil pickup with little plastic parts.  Not good.  That's why I recommend sooner than later -- you're right at the mileage where it's "ready."

hotrod095

#24
Here is an update on my situation. I was having another issue besides the rough idle where my secondaries were not kicking in when the car was warm. I had to manually pull the fast idle down and out of the way, otherwise that linkage would lock onto the steel pin which goes through the secondary shaft. I attached a picture below which shows this lockout mechanism with the choke assembly removed. I continued to have a rough idle, however the clacking is gone which I attribute to driving the car more frequently in warmer weather.



I had a local guy come check my car out this morning who described as being a carburetor guru. He could not figure out where the problem was with my secondary lock-out. He really didn't have any good answer as to why it was binding and didn't show much interest. As for my idle, he said just to turn up the idle speed to mask the symptoms because it's an old car. I smiled and said all was good, but I knew this was unacceptable. He said I must be one of the OCD types. I kindly explained Cadillac enthusiasts don't want to go fast or drag race; rather we expect our cars to idle smoothly an it should be an effortless drive. I also explained how these cars should not "bang" into gear, which is common when the base idle is set too high at around 1000rpm. These engines have gobs of torque, and who could imagine buying a new cadillac in those days that made a loud bang and shuddered when going from park to reverse.

I wasn't satisfied with my local guy's answer. I then called Steve's carburetor repair in NJ, as I remember being told he was one of the best around for quadrajets. I spoke to Steve himself who told me to come by to have the car looked over. Upon his inspection, it seems my fast idle lever was binding up on a small nylon piece that was popping out of the front choke pull off. We changed to a new working pull off unit and the linkage seemed to move freely without binding up. One problem solved!

Then to the idle speed screws. He used a special tool to set the idle speed screws which looked like a long ratchet, all by feel and without a vacuum gauge. The whole process took about 5-10 minutes. I then took the car around the block and WOW! Idle was nice a smooth; no more shuddering when coming to a stop sign. No more slamming into reverse or drive when going out of park; occasionally a small hiccup but barely noticeable. I was told my motor mounts are shot and this would help with any small vibration left. Overall I am happy with how the car runs. I advise anyone in the Tri-State area needing a rebuild to check out Steve as he really knows his stuff.

fishnjim

The old timers would put the "stethoscope" on it and listen for which lifter was talking.   
I'm of the opposite opinion all the "junk" in your oil and fuel is making things worse - carbon-ing it up.
This is a "top end" job usually to diagnose and fix.   You have to ask yourself is it worth it?   And what else you might find?   What harm may be inflicted during tear down?   Like shear off a head bolt, etc.
At over a 100K, things start to go wrong/wear out big time.   You're in the major overhaul category or drive it as it is and don't worry about the noise, til it really starts clacking all the time.   You might get away with a retorq on the valve train, but I suspect you dished one and that causes slack and if you tighten it down, it'll wear more.

hotrod095

I am planning on how to tackle this engine. I am in the midst of doing a full body restoration, including replacement of the door hinge bushings, new passenger door shell, and new rear quarters.

In order to do a timing set, does the oil pan have to come off? I was told the oil pan on an Eldorado is a huge job which involves lifting the engine to clear the front cross member. I also have a rear main seal leak which needs to be addressed. I am wondering if I could also drop the trans and freshen up the engine, maybe with muriatic acid to clean the crud. All of this is to be done next winter hopefully, but in the time being I am wondering how big of a job the timing set would be.

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: hotrod095 on May 12, 2022, 10:10:47 PM
I am planning on how to tackle this engine. I am in the midst of doing a full body restoration, including replacement of the door hinge bushings, new passenger door shell, and new rear quarters.

In order to do a timing set, does the oil pan have to come off? I was told the oil pan on an Eldorado is a huge job which involves lifting the engine to clear the front cross member. I also have a rear main seal leak which needs to be addressed. I am wondering if I could also drop the trans and freshen up the engine, maybe with muriatic acid to clean the crud. All of this is to be done next winter hopefully, but in the time being I am wondering how big of a job the timing set would be.
G'day Frank,

Firstly, there is no such thing with these FWD Eldorados as simply dropping the Transmission with the engine in the car as these are not as easy as the RWD configurations.

Granted, the Engine can be removed without the Trans, but it is really an awful juggling act getting both back together with the trans in place.

I find that it is easier to pull the engine, with the Trans attached, then remove said Trans whilst out of the car, then do all the work necessary with the engine on the Engine Stand.

You definitely need the Shop Manual and follow the instructions to the letter, but you don't need a vehicle hoist, as a trolley jack will work, but, not one of those cheapies.   Plus, use Jackstands.

You don't have to disconnect the AC Pump either.   This is explained in the Shop Manual.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

hornetball

You don't have to pull the engine to tackle the timing chain.  Do a search.  It is a non-standard procedure to deal with the locating pins and get crush on the bottom timing chain cover gasket, but it is doable (I did it).

The caveat is that if you find the nylon on the camshaft gear is gone, then it is likely in little pieces in your oil pickup.  In that case, the oil pan has to come off, and the only way to do that is to pull the engine.

The power unit (engine/transmission combo) is heavy and will require a decent hoist -- but the worst part is pulling off the 300# hood.  Once the hood is off, pulling the power unit is straightforward.

Big Fins

I changed the chain set also without pulling the pan. It's a PITA, but it can be done.
Current:
1976 Eldorado Convertible in Crystal Blue FireMist with white interior and top. (Misty Blue)
1969 Fleetwood Brougham in Chalice Gold FireMist with matching interior and top. (The Old Man) SOLD!

Past and much missed:
1977 Brougham de Elegance
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1972 Fleetwood Brougham
1971 Sedan de Ville
1970 de Ville Convertible
1969 Sedan de Ville
1959 Sedan deVille

The Tassie Devil(le)

#30
If there are any of the nylon teeth coverings missing, then they will be in the pan, or, worse, in the oil pick-up screen.

This was what I found when I dropped the sump in my '72 Eldo.   It took me an hour to remove the pieces by shaking, rattling and rolling, then carefully poking and prodding to make sure that I got it all out.

I am pretty sure that even though I had good oil pressure, the restriction caused by the mess wouldn't have helped the oiling system.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   The only thing I forgot to do was to take a picture looking up into the screen.   Everything that is on the rag was inside that screen.

PPS.   I was surprised that the engine still ran well, but tuning it was hard, as the chain was so stretched and loose.   The way i found it was that I tried the manual turning of the crank, whilst watching the Rotor in the Distributor, and it took a long time for it to start turning in the opposite direction.
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

hotrod095

#31
Hi everyone,
 
  I'm reviving this thread in hopes in helps somebody trying to get their car running smooth.

   I pulled the car out of storage after 7 months just last week. I pulled my steering wheel sometime in March to have it repaired by Gary in Carlisle, PA. He did an outstanding job but it took a bit longer than expected. Wheel is looking great and so far I have no complaints, but I can't yet comment on longevity obviously.

   So I joined a new car club and brought the car out to the first show in years after being in the body shop last summer. I had the car running really poorly, stumbling on and off idle, but cruising pretty well. I spoke to a buddy of mine and sounded ready to just give up on the car. Basically he was telling me don't give up yet, these cars are awesome when running just right, and just take my time. I had brought the car last year to a shop in NJ that works on classic cars, and basically their reply to my rough idle was 'live with it or rebuild.'

   I wasn't ready to rebuild the engine just yet as it's the start of the cruising season here in the northeast. So after the show I brought the car home and followed the shop manual steps of tuning the idle mixture screws (shift lever in Drive, parking brake on, parking brake and vacuum advance hoses plugged) all while using a vacuum gauge for guidance. After a few hours of fumbling with it I finally started with 3 turns out on both screws, making sure they were even, then slowly backing out little by little a 1/4 turn. Finally got the car running to where it is once again a pleasure to cruise around. I did some more tinkering tonight by turning the screws clockwise (lean) another 1/4 a turn or so each. WOW what a difference! I can barely feel the car run when at a stoplight. Hope this helps.

-Frank

James Landi

Frank,

So glad to know that you've managed to smooth out your rough running engine.  The carburetors can foul internally in the idle passages that are associated with those "idle adjustment" screws.  On a couple of occasions, smooth running engines put into storage for winter came out of storage impossible to keep running at idle.  I discovered that FUEL SEPARATION can occur where ethanol gas evaporates in the carburetor leaving a fine sandy deposit that cakes up in those tiny idle passages. Using GUM OUT did not dislodge the crud.  The fix is elegantly simple... by backing out the idle screws and forcing compressed air directly into the screw holes, I've witnessed the brown crud jetting out into the carburetor throat... problem solved.      James

Chopper1942

Carbon on the valves is a big problem with engines since the 60's.  Get some GM Top Engine Cleaner or BG Induction Cleaner.  Have the engine at normal operating temperature and slowly drip the fluid into the carb.  Do this outside.

Use a plastic bottle with a drip type cap, some 1/4" tubing, and drip nozzle for watering plants. Put all but about 1/4 of the cleaner in the bottle and hang it from the hood and let it drip at a rate that does not kill the engine.  When the bottle is empty, pour the remainder in the carb to kill the engine.  Let it soak for about an hour, start the engine, and immediately take for drive at highway speeds if possible.  It will smoke badly, but will clear up.  If it develops a miss, pull the plugs and clean off the carbon chunks.