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Engine noise (tick / tap) - 500 / 8.2L V8 - 1975 Cadillac Coupe DeVille

Started by LandYacht, April 05, 2022, 12:24:41 PM

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LandYacht

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8H47DRyqU

Dear fellow Cadillac enthusiasts,

I am the owner of a 1975 Coupe Deville which I imported from the USA to The Netherlands last year. Unfortunately, I have noticed a ticking or tapping sound coming from the engine compartment. The car didn't make this noise upon purchasing.

When I recorded the video, the sound was quite loud and easily noticeable. It is usually a bit more quiet than that and seems to come and go a bit although it is usually there. It also seems to be in line with the RPM.

Oil is clean and at the correct level. I am 28 and have owned another Cadillac before, although I fortunately never had to perform any engine work. YouTube searches lead me to believe this could be a lifter tick / tap, but I would like to get a wider perspective.

Overall it is a great car and it does everything it is supposed to do. The car is not yet road legal (needs exhaust and power steering work) and therefore I cannot take it for a drive. Dutch road safety regulations are very strict so I am stuck for now.

Could anyone shed some light on this matter? Thank you very much.

TJ Hopland

See if you can narrow down which side its coming from.   A section of pipe or hose to your ear could be a way to narrow it down.  Aim the end of the pipe around the spark plugs and exhaust manifold as well as the rocker arm covers and intake area.    The hose helps narrow down the field you can hear so when you get over the source it will get louder.  If its a hard pipe you can also put it in contact with different surfaces like a stethoscope.

It can be something really simple like a loose spark plug.   Could also be an exhaust leak between the head and exhaust manifold.   When the leak is very close to the head it can have a sharp sound like that.    If it does seem to be coming more from the intake or rocker cover area it would be worth taking the rocker cover off for a closer look at things. 

Rocker cover gaskets should not be too expensive or difficult to get and there isn't much in the way you have to move to get the covers off.   You can run it with the covers off, some oil will splash around but its usually not too bad and again with the hose method you maybe can zero in on where the issue is.  Could be wear in a rocker or maybe a slightly bent pushrod.  If everything looks good I would just put it back together and drive it.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Eelke,
You said the car did not make that sound when you purchased it. How long was the car sitting in storage or shipping without running before you started it back up?
It does sound like lifter noise and much of that might go away once you have had the chance to drive it a bit. I would warm the engine up, shut it off, remove the drive belts and then start and run the engine for a minute noticing if the noise is gone. That would isolate the sound that might be coming from either the belts themselves or anything they are driving.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

signart

Just by listening to that, sounds like you might want to explore an exhaust leak to me.
Art D. Woody

V63

Have you changed the oil?
Sometimes The fuel pump can seep fuel into the crankcase and thin the oil. Check oil for fuel smell.

LandYacht

Thanks to everyone for the quick and helpful replies!

@TJ: I will try to locate the source of the noise to the best of my abilities. Is it absolutely necessary to replace the rocker cover gaskets when I take the cover(s) off? Or is it more of a "might as well do this while I have the cover off"-thing? I agree they may not be too hard to get but since I am Europe it might still take me a while.

@Greg: I believe the previous owner had the car for sale for over a year and it wasn't driven much (or at all) during that period. The whole importing process took a few months and it was probably started less than a handful of times during. I had it delivered to my mechanic straight from the port so he could put it on a lift and further inspect it. When I came to pick it up and bring it to my storage (dealer plates allow non-registered cars to be driven briefly), he mentioned the ticking sound and it has been there since. Due to winter and me living far away from the storage I hadn't started it until yesterday, which is when I recorded the video. It can definitely use some road time.

@Signart: Thank you, I will see what I can find! If the sound was to come from around the exhaust manifold, how would I go about actually identifying the leak?

@V63: The oil hasn't been changed but is at the correct level and looked to be in good condition. I haven't really checked the smell though. I will do so and report back.

This is all new to me but I am willing to learn. Thanks once again for the input!

TJ Hopland

It depends on how old the existing gaskets are and if any sort of sealers were used.  Its possible the gaskets may stay attached to the covers and go back on reasonably well.    Its also possible that they are stuck for various reasons and won't come off in one piece. 

The hose to the ear method I mentioned should help to narrow down where the noise is coming from.  It narrows down the area you are hearing the loudest so if you find an area where the noise gets louder you should be close to the source of the noise. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadman59

Quote from: LandYacht on April 05, 2022, 03:34:43 PM

@TJ: I will try to locate the source of the noise to the best of my abilities. Is it absolutely necessary to replace the rocker cover gaskets when I take the cover(s) off? Or is it more of a "might as well do this while I have the cover off"-thing? I agree they may not be too hard to get but since I am Europe it might still take me a while.


Hi Eelke,

I also live in the Netherlands and nowadays for parts I usually order them at tamotor.se, located in Sweden.

Good quality parts, they know what they are talking about and shipping plus taxes and duties is more affordable than shipping from the States. Takes about a week or less shipping time.

Good luck with your landyacht!!

Feiko
Uithoorn
Feiko Kuiper - Netherlands (Europe)

1959 Cadillac Series SixtyTwo 6-Window Sedan
https://instagram.com/feikokuiper

Steve Lomas

Quote from: LandYacht on April 05, 2022, 12:24:41 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv8H47DRyqU

Dear fellow Cadillac enthusiasts,

I am the owner of a 1975 Coupe Deville which I imported from the USA to The Netherlands last year. Unfortunately, I have noticed a ticking or tapping sound coming from the engine compartment. The car didn't make this noise upon purchasing.

When I recorded the video, the sound was quite loud and easily noticeable. It is usually a bit more quiet than that and seems to come and go a bit although it is usually there. It also seems to be in line with the RPM.

Oil is clean and at the correct level. I am 28 and have owned another Cadillac before, although I fortunately never had to perform any engine work. YouTube searches lead me to believe this could be a lifter tick / tap, but I would like to get a wider perspective.

Overall it is a great car and it does everything it is supposed to do. The car is not yet road legal (needs exhaust and power steering work) and therefore I cannot take it for a drive. Dutch road safety regulations are very strict so I am stuck for now.

Could anyone shed some light on this matter? Thank you very much.

Eelke, just to start with easy stuff- can you get higher octane gas to see if that helps?   Also might be worth trying a product like Seafoam to clean carbon deposits that might be sticking things..

Or maybe just needs taken out for some good old Italian tuning when nobody's looking! :)


LandYacht

Update:

Today I went to my storage again and tried pinpointing the sound. I determined that it was the loudest around the driver's side, more specifically the valve cover area. I pulled the cover (it was really stuck, not sure if it was ever taken off since assembly) and checked the rocker arms. That's when I found this:

https://youtube.com/shorts/ulEvfxrUn9s?feature=share

Exessive play on one of the rocker arms, which I thought was a plausible cause for the ticking or tapping sound I've been experiencing. However, when I then ran the engine with the cover off, I started doubting. The valve train was audible but it seemed like a seperate, softer / lighter sound. I am not sure if the ticking / tapping comes from there.

Towards the end of the 'run', the ticking / tapping was almost not noticeable. I believe this may be just regular valve train noise: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Bid9L34qJQo

Compared to this, only minutes before: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x5HmcamqaFA Much louder and not sure if valve train related. Almost like an exhaust rumble.

Since the sound seems to come and go (or at least changes in loudness), I found it really hard to determine what exactly is going on. I have no prior experience and no family or friends who could be of help here.

Lastly, I noticed some smoke or fumes coming from the engine compartment as I was running the engine without the valve cover: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6i1TBV_f3Uk

Maybe it is because of oil spilling out of the open cylinder head, but it seemed a bit odd to me. Could this be an indicator of an exhaust manifold leak or not at all?

LandYacht

@Feiko: Thank you very much! I checked them out, they seem to have a lot of stuff indeed and at decent prices. Good tip!

@Steve: I think she could sure use some regular driving. It's possible that there is still 'inferior' gas in the tank at the moment. Using oil additives is also something I may look at. Thanks for your input!

hornetball

Based on your description, I'm pretty sure you have a cracked exhaust manifold.  The driver's side frequently cracks because it is covered by a heat stove on these model years.  You'll need to take the heat stove off to check -- use lots of penetrating oil.  Symptom for a cracked manifold is loud ticking when cold and it gets quieter as the manifold heats up and expands.  Fortunately, the driver's side manifold is reproduced (like I said, common issue).

Cadillacdave

The smoke is oil hitting your exhaust manifold since the rocker covers are off. Run engine again and stop it. The valves will be in a different position than before. Check the rocker arm which seemed loose. If it is still loose perhaps it just needs a slight adjustment to tighten it back up. Check all of the rocker arms again and see if any of the others are loose, since the valves are now in a different position. As another poster stated, it could be a cracked exhaust manifold which would emit a ticking noise upon start up and slowly go away as the motor and manifold heat up and expand. All motors are a little bit louder when they start up and get quieter as metal parts expand and the internal tolerances get tighter.

wrefakis

472/500 rocker retaining tabs get loose
arms can wear
tighten tabs check if still some noise remove that bank file down support to reduce excess play

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Eelke,
considering you are taking the video inside I would not consider the sound level excessive for a "seasoned" 500 inch motor.  A bit of piston sound there. The smoke as said above is most likely from oil dripping onto the exhaust.  Get it inspected, drive it for a few hundred K and see how it behaves.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#15
Ok. This might sound weird, but....
I had a rebuild issue several years ago. Took a while to get things right (but I still don't like the idle). I had a lifter tick that I just could not chase down. It seemed to be coming from several places but the sound location  always seemed to change- side to side, front to back.
Then I ran it with the covers off and noticed thr rockers rotating about 10 degrees clock/counterclockwise just a bit.
Long story short (too late) the female end of the rockers were too big, and the male end of the pedestal was too small which allowed for slop. These were all new but I had the originals. I didn't know which one mated with which so there was no way to keep them in their previous locations. I got out my handy dandy Harbor Freight micrometer and matched them up so they all had similar clearances and the  reinstalled them. Noise went away.
I noticed you were able to rotate your rockers so this may be something to consider.
Good luck.
Jeff R
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

LandYacht

Thanks everyone for the very helpful replies. I haven't time to work on the Cadillac as I live in Belgium but my cars are in The Netherlands.

Today I removed the heat stove and did a visual inspection of the driver side exhaust manifold. Hornetball was right, it needed LOTS of penetrating oil but came off eventually. Thanks for the tip!

I didn't find any obvious open cracks, but did notice some differences between the driver side manifold and the passenger one.

Here's a picture of the driver side manifold (the tapping seems to be strongest on this side):



And here's the passenger side manifold:



Apart from the driver side manifold being a lot more rusted and dirty, I noticed some horizontal lines running in between the pipes. They didn't strike me exactly as cracks, but more like 'tectonic' ridges, as if there inward force from both sides resulting in an upward movement. They also have dark spots around them. There don't seem to be any openings in them, but they are not present on the passenger side. Here are some closeups:

Driver side 'ridge':



Another one:



Meanwhile, on the passenger side, this surface is smooth:



Am I looking at (beginning) cracks here? If so, what would cause them to develop like this? Most cracks that I have seen on pictures and videos so far are vertical, not horizontal.

hornetball


LandYacht

Finally was able to get the car inspected and approved. Now looking forward to drive it and hopefully have the tick go away.

However, I'd still like to remove the drive belts to exclude the belts and the accessories they are driving. Can anyone talk me through this step-by-step? Greg makes it sound simple but I am not sure where to start.

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I went thru this with mine, and absolutely chased my tail.
The rockers are on pedestals which are male, and the hole in the rocker is female. There is slop there allowing the rocker to pivot like that which is your noise. When mine was running, I took a gloved hand and kept the rocker from pivoting and the noise went away.
I pulled all the rockers and pedestals and put the biggest rocker hole with the biggest pedestal to minimize the rocking and noise. This was after a rebuild so I wasn't overly concerned about things matching.
Jeff R
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille